American Health Care Killed My Father (Full Version)

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tj444 -> American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 8:34:14 AM)

this vid is 30 minutes long but its filled with interesting/amazing insight on the US health care system..
I would like to know what are the major points from it that you come away with? (the political system is ok to discuss but I do not want this thread to become a R vs D train wreck)..

American Health Care Killed My Father: Q&A with David Goldhill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvSa9nC4JcQ




Phydeaux -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:20:08 AM)

A NY liberal blames American healthcare when his 82 yr old father with pneumonia dies in a hospital.

Yeah.. what was supposed to be interesting / surprising here?

So I listened to the entire damn thing.

It is *entirely* a political discussion - it says virtually nothing about his father.

He said some things I agree with - the distortions of healthcare caused by the government interventions.
The differences between price and cost.
The idea that you have no rational relationship between price and cost, since consumers have no incentive to shop.
The idea that heathcare insurance isn't actually insruance - we are putting all healthcare spending through insurance. Thats like asking your auto insurance to pay for oil changes.




DaddySatyr -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:27:35 AM)

pneumonia can kill at any age. At 82 years old, influenza can kill.

But, I will take the bait: How does Obummercare prevent this from happening (that's what we're here for, right? This is another "sly" attempt at pushing the Obummercare agenda down our throat. Right?)? Did Obummer come up with a new medical treatment? Does the law really make healthcare more affordable or does it protect large insurance corporations from people "defaulting" on medical care?

Does the law make insurance more affordable for everyone or does it raise the cost to those who had it before in order to offer free health insurance to those that didn't have it (screw the "rich" to the benefit of the poor)?

I know that my health insurance went up quite a bit because since I lost my health insurance, anyone else sees me as having a "pre-existing condition". Yeah Obastardcare really helped me. May he rot in hell.







tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:29:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

A NY liberal blames American healthcare when his 82 yr old father with pneumonia dies in a hospital.

Yeah.. what was supposed to be interesting / surprising here?

did you bother to listen to anything in the vid? he said 100,000 people die every year due to easily implemented and inexpensive ways that hospitals could be more hygienic and prevent dying of something you caught there..

but imo he covered a lot more ground than that, his father dying like that was why he started looking into the whole health care system..

and again, I said I didn't want this to turn into a R vs D train wreck and you deliberately are attempting to do exactly that (by instead of saying "Democrat" saying he was a "liberal")..




BamaD -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:32:50 AM)

And socialized medicine (military health care killed my wife).
They tested her for diabetes and four years later, from that test noticed she had it.
They never got it under control.
Spent 5 years with it killing her a piece at a time.




tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:40:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

pneumonia can kill at any age. At 82 years old, influenza can kill.

But, I will take the bait: How does Obummercare prevent this from happening (that's what we're here for, right? This is another "sly" attempt at bushing the Obummercare agenda down our throat. Right?)? Did Obummer come up with a new medical treatment? Does the law really make healthcare more affordable or does it protect large insurance corporations from people "defaulting" on medical care?

Does the law make insurance more affordable for everyone or does it raise the cost to those who had it before in order to offer free health insurance to those that didn't have it (screw the "rich" to the benefit of the poor)?

I know that my health insurance went up quite a bit because since I lost my health insurance, anyone else sees me as having a "pre-existing condition". Yeah Obastardcare really helped me. May he rot in hell.





if you had actually listened to the vid (which is why I posted it), he says what a 23 year old will pay for health care over their lifetime anywhere for $1 million to 2.25 million dollars (that is combined insurance fees paid by the person, insurance paid by the company, tax dollars allocated to cover health care, etc etc)..

and something few people really think much about is at about 19:00 minutes he talks about end-of-life care.. basically, "if nearly everyone needs it, how do you insure for something that happens to everyone? How do you have a fire insurance pool if everyone’s house burns down?" I think he has a good point on that, who is gonna pay for your end-of-life costs (which are the most expensive for the last 3 years of your life).. that is, unless you do everyone the favor of dropping dead quickly..





tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:42:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And socialized medicine (military health care killed my wife).
They tested her for diabetes and four years later, from that test noticed she had it.
They never got it under control.
Spent 5 years with it killing her a piece at a time.

so if you are against socialized health care, why didn't you just pay for what she needed yourselves? They did not stop you from doing that, did they?




EdBowie -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:55:40 AM)

And that's just hygiene.

Last I heard, it was more like 400,000 preventable deaths a year from all forms of medical misadventure.

People don't like to hear 'blame the patient', but it is an overloaded and often misused system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

A NY liberal blames American healthcare when his 82 yr old father with pneumonia dies in a hospital.

Yeah.. what was supposed to be interesting / surprising here?

did you bother to listen to anything in the vid? he said 100,000 people die every year due to easily implemented and inexpensive ways that hospitals could be more hygienic and prevent dying of something you caught there..

but imo he covered a lot more ground than that, his father dying like that was why he started looking into the whole health care system..

and again, I said I didn't want this to turn into a R vs D train wreck and you deliberately are attempting to do exactly that (by instead of saying "Democrat" saying he was a "liberal")..





Phydeaux -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 10:57:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

A NY liberal blames American healthcare when his 82 yr old father with pneumonia dies in a hospital.

Yeah.. what was supposed to be interesting / surprising here?

did you bother to listen to anything in the vid? he said 100,000 people die every year due to easily implemented and inexpensive ways that hospitals could be more hygienic and prevent dying of something you caught there..

but imo he covered a lot more ground than that, his father dying like that was why he started looking into the whole health care system..

and again, I said I didn't want this to turn into a R vs D train wreck and you deliberately are attempting to do exactly that (by instead of saying "Democrat" saying he was a "liberal")..


You say this as if its interesting or new.

A NY liberal who produces a TV show (ie, has no background in medicine) says its easy to stop people dying of infections.
So while I agree that thousands of people die from hospital acquired illnesses, I have also happened to read the protocolsl the hospitals are using to try to control infection.

They are NOT simple, and they are spending millions of dollars. Hospitals have UV machines that irradiate rooms to kill infectious agents. Some use copper in their light plates and touch surfaces as it controls infections. They have protocols for hand-washing.

So I think his prescriptions in this area are know-nothing. A lot of the other things I agreed with. But there's nothing really new...




Phydeaux -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:00:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

pneumonia can kill at any age. At 82 years old, influenza can kill.

But, I will take the bait: How does Obummercare prevent this from happening (that's what we're here for, right? This is another "sly" attempt at bushing the Obummercare agenda down our throat. Right?)? Did Obummer come up with a new medical treatment? Does the law really make healthcare more affordable or does it protect large insurance corporations from people "defaulting" on medical care?

Does the law make insurance more affordable for everyone or does it raise the cost to those who had it before in order to offer free health insurance to those that didn't have it (screw the "rich" to the benefit of the poor)?

I know that my health insurance went up quite a bit because since I lost my health insurance, anyone else sees me as having a "pre-existing condition". Yeah Obastardcare really helped me. May he rot in hell.





if you had actually listened to the vid (which is why I posted it), he says what a 23 year old will pay for health care over their lifetime anywhere for $1 million to 2.25 million dollars (that is combined insurance fees paid by the person, insurance paid by the company, tax dollars allocated to cover health care, etc etc)..

and something few people really think much about is at about 19:00 minutes he talks about end-of-life care.. basically, "if nearly everyone needs it, how do you insure for something that happens to everyone? How do you have a fire insurance pool if everyone’s house burns down?" I think he has a good point on that, who is gonna pay for your end-of-life costs (which are the most expensive for the last 3 years of your life).. that is, unless you do everyone the favor of dropping dead quickly..




Or you could take the point that most conservatives take. We're all going to die. Why don't you pay for your care, and I'll pay for mine. You have your entire life to plan for it.....




Phydeaux -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:04:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

and again, I said I didn't want this to turn into a R vs D train wreck and you deliberately are attempting to do exactly that (by instead of saying "Democrat" saying he was a "liberal")..


When you choose an inflammatory topic "American Health Care Killed my Father" you have to expect people not to agree with your basic contention.

Especially since there is no evidence in the vid to support the title. It would be more accurately titled - a leftist's view of America's Murder machine". I'd still dispute it - but at least the title would match the subject matter.




BamaD -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:05:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And socialized medicine (military health care killed my wife).
They tested her for diabetes and four years later, from that test noticed she had it.
They never got it under control.
Spent 5 years with it killing her a piece at a time.

so if you are against socialized health care, why didn't you just pay for what she needed yourselves? They did not stop you from doing that, did they?

When we found out how they had screwed up we went to private doctor but by that time it had advanced so far that between the advanced diabetes and the
related high blood pressure there was no catching up.




jlf1961 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:28:16 AM)

At six months old I had pneumonia. The air force hospital at Williams Air Force Base could adequately treat it, so I was transferred to a hospital in Phoenix, I spent six weeks in an oxygen tent.

In the early 60's, pneumonia in an infant was usually fatal.

My point, pneumonia can kill at any age, and treatment may or may not be effective at any age.

Blaming the entire healthcare systems makes about as much sense as sending a mouse to scare off a coyote.

Will the ACA fix it, probably not, unless they fix the ACA

As for simple things to make a hospital more hygienic and cleaner, I have to point out you are more likely to catch a staph infection in a hospital in any country than any where else.




tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:34:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

You say this as if its interesting or new.

A NY liberal who produces a TV show (ie, has no background in medicine) says its easy to stop people dying of infections.
So while I agree that thousands of people die from hospital acquired illnesses, I have also happened to read the protocolsl the hospitals are using to try to control infection.

They are NOT simple, and they are spending millions of dollars. Hospitals have UV machines that irradiate rooms to kill infectious agents. Some use copper in their light plates and touch surfaces as it controls infections. They have protocols for hand-washing.

So I think his prescriptions in this area are know-nothing. A lot of the other things I agreed with. But there's nothing really new...

it was not simply him saying this, he was saying a critical care specialist was saying this, one of those on the front line.. I believe this is the article he referred to in the vid.. It is not just knowing what you are supposed to do, its doing it and not skipping steps.. this was just one problem- line infections- that is being illustrated showing that hospitals need to up their game..

"In 2001, though, a critical-care specialist at Johns Hopkins Hospital named Peter Pronovost decided to give it a try. He didn’t attempt to make the checklist cover everything; he designed it to tackle just one problem, the one that nearly killed Anthony DeFilippo: line infections. On a sheet of plain paper, he plotted out the steps to take in order to avoid infections when putting a line in. Doctors are supposed to (1) wash their hands with soap, (2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic, (3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient, (4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and (5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in. Check, check, check, check, check. These steps are no-brainers; they have been known and taught for years. So it seemed silly to make a checklist just for them. Still, Pronovost asked the nurses in his I.C.U. to observe the doctors for a month as they put lines into patients, and record how often they completed each step. In more than a third of patients, they skipped at least one.

The next month, he and his team persuaded the hospital administration to authorize nurses to stop doctors if they saw them skipping a step on the checklist; nurses were also to ask them each day whether any lines ought to be removed, so as not to leave them in longer than necessary. This was revolutionary. Nurses have always had their ways of nudging a doctor into doing the right thing, ranging from the gentle reminder (“Um, did you forget to put on your mask, doctor?”) to more forceful methods (I’ve had a nurse bodycheck me when she thought I hadn’t put enough drapes on a patient). But many nurses aren’t sure whether this is their place, or whether a given step is worth a confrontation. (Does it really matter whether a patient’s legs are draped for a line going into the chest?) The new rule made it clear: if doctors didn’t follow every step on the checklist, the nurses would have backup from the administration to intervene.

Pronovost and his colleagues monitored what happened for a year afterward. The results were so dramatic that they weren’t sure whether to believe them: the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all




tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:39:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And socialized medicine (military health care killed my wife).
They tested her for diabetes and four years later, from that test noticed she had it.
They never got it under control.
Spent 5 years with it killing her a piece at a time.

so if you are against socialized health care, why didn't you just pay for what she needed yourselves? They did not stop you from doing that, did they?

When we found out how they had screwed up we went to private doctor but by that time it had advanced so far that between the advanced diabetes and the
related high blood pressure there was no catching up.

it was a shitty doctor and imo this would be a malpractice lawsuit situation, the same thing could have happened if you had gone private all along imo.. there are shitty docs both in and out of the socialized system..

And imo a huge problem with your socialized/military health system is that they dictate to you which doctors, hospitals etc you can use, it should be the patient that should be able to choose & be covered by any of the docs (which is the way it is in Canada, no need for HMOs and I like that system, yours just sucks- there are huge differences between those 2 "socialized" health care systems)..

I am sorry you & your wife went thru that...




tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 11:51:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

and again, I said I didn't want this to turn into a R vs D train wreck and you deliberately are attempting to do exactly that (by instead of saying "Democrat" saying he was a "liberal")..


When you choose an inflammatory topic "American Health Care Killed my Father" you have to expect people not to agree with your basic contention.

Especially since there is no evidence in the vid to support the title. It would be more accurately titled - a leftist's view of America's Murder machine". I'd still dispute it - but at least the title would match the subject matter.

its not about left vs right, its a system both parties are supporting (since the legislation was passed into law) and this (his father's death) occurred before Obamacare.. You probably call me a lefty (even tho in Canada I am a conservative) but I do not support Obamacare, but I don't support the pre-Obamacare system either.. Imo, Obamcare (as it stands) is a failure and both parties are to blame for that..

I guess it was too much for me to expect people to actually listen (with an open mind) to what he was saying and then decide which points you agreed with or not.. [&o]




BamaD -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 12:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And socialized medicine (military health care killed my wife).
They tested her for diabetes and four years later, from that test noticed she had it.
They never got it under control.
Spent 5 years with it killing her a piece at a time.

so if you are against socialized health care, why didn't you just pay for what she needed yourselves? They did not stop you from doing that, did they?

When we found out how they had screwed up we went to private doctor but by that time it had advanced so far that between the advanced diabetes and the
related high blood pressure there was no catching up.

it was a shitty doctor and imo this would be a malpractice lawsuit situation, the same thing could have happened if you had gone private all along imo.. there are shitty docs both in and out of the socialized system..

And imo a huge problem with your socialized/military health system is that they dictate to you which doctors, hospitals etc you can use, it should be the patient that should be able to choose & be covered by any of the docs (which is the way it is in Canada, no need for HMOs and I like that system, yours just sucks- there are huge differences between those 2 "socialized" health care systems)..

I am sorry you & your wife went thru that...

Are you telling me that a private doctor who has to face malpractice wouldn't notice that a test they
ordered show exactly what they were looking for?
Malpractice isn't a factor in the military unless you can prove to the governments satisfaction that you
have a good case, and that is just to get permission to sue.
Harm couldn't be "proven" until she died which was 5 years after she stopped seeing military doctors.
While still seeing them one wanted to give her penicillin to see if her allergy to it had gone away.




EdBowie -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 12:36:04 PM)

Since people in this thread have already done exactly that, it would seem that the agenda is all your.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

its not about left vs right, its a system both parties are supporting (since the legislation was passed into law) and this (his father's death) occurred before Obamacare.. You probably call me a lefty (even tho in Canada I am a conservative) but I do not support Obamacare, but I don't support the pre-Obamacare system either.. Imo, Obamcare (as it stands) is a failure and both parties are to blame for that..

I guess it was too much for me to expect people to actually listen (with an open mind) to what he was saying and then decide which points you agreed with or not.. [&o]





tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 1:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Are you telling me that a private doctor who has to face malpractice wouldn't notice that a test they
ordered show exactly what they were looking for?


depends on if they are a good doctor or a shitty one.. the shitty ones exist in private practice also..

It should not matter if its socialized health care or private, if they aren't finding the problem then you then you should get a second opinion.. you are going to have the greatest interest in your own health so go get the answers you need, even if it takes seeing 15 doctors..




tj444 -> RE: American Health Care Killed My Father (1/18/2014 1:15:40 PM)

come on dude, I doubt very many have actually listened to the entire 30 minutes.. which is too bad but wtf, its not my health care system, its yours.. you can not even attempt to tell your politicians how to improve it if you don't know what the problems are & the possible ways to change it to make it better..

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Since people in this thread have already done exactly that, it would seem that the agenda is all your.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

its not about left vs right, its a system both parties are supporting (since the legislation was passed into law) and this (his father's death) occurred before Obamacare.. You probably call me a lefty (even tho in Canada I am a conservative) but I do not support Obamacare, but I don't support the pre-Obamacare system either.. Imo, Obamcare (as it stands) is a failure and both parties are to blame for that..

I guess it was too much for me to expect people to actually listen (with an open mind) to what he was saying and then decide which points you agreed with or not.. [&o]







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