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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/30/2014 3:37:23 PM

fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

You do realize they do the exact same thing your senate does right? They're not that different aside from how the members are appointed.

You do realize that's like saying a monarchy is no different from a democracy!

Seriously. They are NOT elected officials and yet taxpayer money supports them. They do not, according to Wiki, initiate legislation. They do not really vote against legislation either. Our senate does NOT operate this way. First, they are elected i.e. they are a democratic institution. Your senate is NOT a democratic institution. They are NOT elected by your citizens. Second, our senators can introduce legislation. This is something your senators ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO. Third, our senators can and DO reject legislation (a quick Internet search will give you many examples of this). They are extremely active members of our government - that is the way the Constitution envisaged them. They are NOT even remotely a rubber stamp. You do not understand American politics at all if you think U.S. senators function the same way as Canadian senators and if you think the U.S. Senate is limited in the same way as the Canadian Senate.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/30/2014 4:17:44 PM

tj444

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The Governor-General and the Senate are paid for by whom? The Queen of England, the U.K. or the Canadian taxpayer? I assume the Canadian taxpayer. And they do what exactly (seems to me they are a rubber stamp)? Why are you paying for 106 people on an annual basis out of taxpayer dollars who seem to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Sounds like the best gravy train EVER. Do you have to be Canadian to be a Senator.

Imo, the senate can go, along with all those old brain-dead fogies.. as far as the Governor-General goes (the Queen has 11 representatives, one in each province as well as the GG).. yes, Canadians pay for them but they do perform various duties (apart from rubber stamping), much like the Queen does in the UK.. I personally do not want to get rid of the queen's representatives, they are a greater benefit than their cost imo...and I like the tradition and connection to the Queen.. (I am not the tea dumping type..

)

To be a Governor-General you don't need to be born in Canada but you do need to have become a Canadian.. Adrienne Clarkson was my fav, as she had been an investigative journalist for a long time, she had class imo, but she did ruffle feathers at times..

"1999, when Queen Elizabeth II commissioned as her representative Adrienne Clarkson, a Hong Kong-born refugee to Canada.
Clarkson was the first governor general in Canadian history without either a political or military background, as well as the first Asian-Canadian and the second woman, following on Jeanne Sauvé. The third woman to hold this position was also the first Caribbean-Canadian governor general, Michaëlle Jean."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/30/2014 5:09:01 PM

Tkman117

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wow, someone is a little testy. I am still learning about Canadian politics fyi, trying to get prepared for 2015, no need to act as though I spat in your food, I don't know everything about politics, both Canadian and american.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 8:52:14 AM

fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

wow, someone is a little testy. I am still learning about Canadian politics fyi, trying to get prepared for 2015, no need to act as though I spat in your food, I don't know everything about politics, both Canadian and american.

Sorry, I did not mean to come across as testy - but your initial post did make it sound like you considered yourself one who was knowledgable about politics in general.

Maybe some historical context and background for my thoughts would help here. I'm not fond of imperialists, colonialists, or people who have somehow managed to glorify both. It seems to me the Commonwealth is an extremely outdated structure that bears no resemblance to today's realities and in many ways, ignores the legacy of imperialism. I'm all for tradition when it makes sense in a contemporary context. Not trying to be testy, but I really don't understand countries like Australia and Canada who still have the Queen of England as official head of state. Queen Elizabeth II, in addition to her various other titles, holds the official title of Queen of Canada and Queen of Australia. I fully realize that this is "symbolic" in nature and that she doesn't exert any power (although under the governing documents of Canada she actually does still have power if she chose to exercise it). But let's stop and think about "symbols" for a moment. The nazi flag is a symbol, too. so let's remove ourselves from the notion of history, tradition and symbology as having any inherent value in and of itself. Nothing in history does. It matters more how we view things through the lens of morality. The wealth that existed in the U.K. historically, and today, is largely the result of a vast empire that literally pillaged both the natural resources and labor of many populations. Think of the colonial fur trade, cotton/spices/gems from India, labor from a variety of places including Ireland. The Queen's personal fortune, and the country's historical wealth, comes from the exploitation of vast numbers of countries/peoples. This is extremely well documented. Nothing new here. But how one chooses to treat this history and legacy says a lot about mindset. I feel countries like Australia and Canada are in a stage of their lives as countries where this last vestige of colonialism should just be removed.

I understand the Canadian senate was based on the House of Lords in the U.K. and not on the U.S. senate, so its role was never intended as a role similar to the U.S. senate. I do think true checks and balances are important in a governmental structure. Right now, this particular institution strikes me as superfluous at best, but anti-democratic at worse.

I think the senate should play a more important role in Canadian governance, or just be disbanded. Either it is meant to act as a check or balance the way our senate does, or taxpayers should be relieved of having to pay for them as their role seems more symbolic in nature. And the symbology involved is directly related to Canada's colonial past. Something I think that country should be ready to move beyond. Just my two cents.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 12:23:39 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I'm not fond of imperialists, colonialists, or people who have somehow managed to glorify both. It seems to me the Commonwealth is an extremely outdated structure that bears no resemblance to today's realities and in many ways, ignores the legacy of imperialism.

and.. the US isn't imperialist? its the most imperialist country in the world and keeps insisting on continuing the practice..

im·pe·ri·al·ism
the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialism

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 1:53:15 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I'm not fond of imperialists, colonialists, or people who have somehow managed to glorify both. It seems to me the Commonwealth is an extremely outdated structure that bears no resemblance to today's realities and in many ways, ignores the legacy of imperialism.

and.. the US isn't imperialist? its the most imperialist country in the world and keeps insisting on continuing the practice..

im·pe·ri·al·ism
the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialism

My being American does not mean I support American policy in every way, shape and form. Do you support every single thing your government does? My statement holds true. I am not fond of imperialists, colonialists, or people who have somehow managed to glorify both. But I will also say this. The legacy European colonialism and of two world wars (brought to us by EUROPE not the U.S.) has had wide reaching implications for the globe including terrorism, the mideast conflicts, Kashmir, Pakistan militancy, post-colonial Africa, post-colonial Asia (I could go on, but you get the picture). These issues are with us largely because of decisions that EUROPEANS made throughout history. Most of the danger zones in the world, and most of the places that pose serious threats to everyone's existence on the planet did not come about due to American policy. I'm not giving the U.S. a pass. But the legacy of European colonialism and the two world wars have absolutely caused a lasting negative effect on current global populations. Any historian will tell you that. What specifically is happening in the world today that you can attribute SOLELY to U.S. policy? Things like poverty in Africa, the conflict in Kashmir, etc. can be traced DIRECTLY to European colonialism.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 2:39:52 PM

Tkman117

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Lol, sweetheart, you need to get a grip. Europeans in the past were humans just like us. And shocker! Humans suck balls. If not the europeans you can bet some other empire would have caused just as many problems, maybe more, maybe less. Hard to say. But humans in our wide spread greed and ignorance would have likely brought about a world very similar to the ones the European empires built.

That's not to say humanity doesn't have hope on the horizon to change, but in the past, humans were the same no matter what place you came from. They all felt ambition, greed, and hate, which would have resulted in horrible things regardless of who or where they came from. So before you play the blame game, you need to realize that there is really nothing separating you and I from anyone else in this world, and given the right situation, the events in the past could have been played out with a different empire causing all the suffering.

We are in a new era now, one where there are no real empires (unless you count the USA or major companies), and we are moving forward as best as we can. We today aren't simply experiencing what European colonialism did to the world, we are experiencing the aftermath of what ALL of history has wrought, because without the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, Europe wouldn't have become what it was.

The variables went a certain way, and now we simply have to deal with the consequences. What happened, happened. The people who inflicted the horrors you speak of are long dead. Their empires, now gone but with a few non harmful remnants remaining. Learn from the past, don't be consumed by it.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 2:40:13 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
yes I know they buy both sides, its easier and cheaper than having to buy 3 or 4 sides (if there was more than just 2), was my point.. and 2 parties have created the gridlock, which is a long-term consequence..

There aren't more politicians. Does it matter if there are 2 parties with 300 pol's each, or 4 parties with 150 each?

Gridlock isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some on these boards have mocked the Republicans because of how few laws have been passed recently. I find that there haven't been many laws passed as laudable. I'm a firm believer that we don't necessarily need more laws. Every time something bad happens, we don't necessarily need a new law, or expanded set of laws as a reaction. Sometimes, we need to simply execute the laws we already have in place instead.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 2:48:48 PM

Tkman117

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While I totally agree DS, if laws aren't being changed or added, then why the hell are those who make the laws being payed a full year's salary if they don't do anything? Or if they get so much time off the way the US House seems to? imo they should be payed what they're worth in the work they do, not by the job they have. I know, they have a salary, but at least have it so they're paid a reasonable amount.

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 3:16:42 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
My being American does not mean I support American policy in every way, shape and form. Do you support every single thing your government does? My statement holds true. I am not fond of imperialists, colonialists, or people who have somehow managed to glorify both. But I will also say this. The legacy European colonialism and of two world wars (brought to us by EUROPE not the U.S.) has had wide reaching implications for the globe including terrorism, the mideast conflicts, Kashmir, Pakistan militancy, post-colonial Africa, post-colonial Asia (I could go on, but you get the picture). These issues are with us largely because of decisions that EUROPEANS made throughout history. Most of the danger zones in the world, and most of the places that pose serious threats to everyone's existence on the planet did not come about due to American policy. I'm not giving the U.S. a pass. But the legacy of European colonialism and the two world wars have absolutely caused a lasting negative effect on current global populations. Any historian will tell you that. What specifically is happening in the world today that you can attribute SOLELY to U.S. policy? Things like poverty in Africa, the conflict in Kashmir, etc. can be traced DIRECTLY to European colonialism.

oh ffs, you want to go back centuries in history when those countries no longer do? but speaking of history, the not so distant history, today's terrorism is in great part a result of US meddling in the Mid-East, the Shah of Iran and all the other shite its done.. the western world/countries can thank the US & its bottomless corporate greed for that.. You don't think that has caused a lasting effect? You have pushed your policies on the entire world, to the point that now all banks in all other countries must report to the US govt/IRS or turn away all American citizen customers/potential customers.. Your policies & patriot act have been forced on all other countries, the US is the bully of the world and yet you don't see how it makes the world despise the US more each day.. US allies are turning away from the US also.. Imo, at some point the US dollar will cease to be the worlds reserve currency and your politicians will take your country down.. the number of homeless and Americans living in poverty in a country that holds itself up as a country of opportunity is appalling.. slavery never ended in the US, it simply changed form..

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 3:22:13 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
While I totally agree DS, if laws aren't being changed or added, then why the hell are those who make the laws being payed a full year's salary if they don't do anything? Or if they get so much time off the way the US House seems to? imo they should be payed what they're worth in the work they do, not by the job they have. I know, they have a salary, but at least have it so they're paid a reasonable amount.

I doubt you meant it this way, but the way I'm reading your first sentence, it sounds like they should be passing and/or changing laws simply because they are being paid to be there. Preventing laws from being changed and/or passed, could also be seen as the job of a politician, depending on the laws that are attempting to be changed/passed.

I don't know why they work a full year. That's not how it started out. I believe the legislative session was but a handful of weeks, once a year. While I'm not saying they should be limited to that timeframe now, I think it would be better if they spent less time in DC playing political games, and more time in their home districts. I don't believe being a politician should be a career (I support term limits). I don't believe serving in the Senate or House of Representatives for one term should grant you any benefits after your term is over (no retirement benefits).

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 1/31/2014 4:16:55 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
yes I know they buy both sides, its easier and cheaper than having to buy 3 or 4 sides (if there was more than just 2), was my point.. and 2 parties have created the gridlock, which is a long-term consequence..

There aren't more politicians. Does it matter if there are 2 parties with 300 pol's each, or 4 parties with 150 each?

Gridlock isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some on these boards have mocked the Republicans because of how few laws have been passed recently. I find that there haven't been many laws passed as laudable. I'm a firm believer that we don't necessarily need more laws. Every time something bad happens, we don't necessarily need a new law, or expanded set of laws as a reaction. Sometimes, we need to simply execute the laws we already have in place instead.

Yes, I do think it makes a difference.. there would need to be differentiation between each party (in what they promised, what they stand for etc) so voters could decide which serves their interests best.. and that would make it harder for the corps & lobbyists to buy them all..

Imo gridlock has been, is now & will continue to be a great part of this country's economic collapse.. the 1% have faired well, any paper losses have been recouped and fresh profits are rolling in for them.. most of the rest are still in bad shape, imo, and the next recession will hit them harder imo.. I don't think the minor "good" thing about gridlock is enough of a reason to support it.. but I know that gridlock situation is just not going to change, especially cuz people simply accept it..

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RE: New Canadian Senate Independents - 2/1/2014 6:18:38 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
yes I know they buy both sides, its easier and cheaper than having to buy 3 or 4 sides (if there was more than just 2), was my point.. and 2 parties have created the gridlock, which is a long-term consequence..

There aren't more politicians. Does it matter if there are 2 parties with 300 pol's each, or 4 parties with 150 each?
Gridlock isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some on these boards have mocked the Republicans because of how few laws have been passed recently. I find that there haven't been many laws passed as laudable. I'm a firm believer that we don't necessarily need more laws. Every time something bad happens, we don't necessarily need a new law, or expanded set of laws as a reaction. Sometimes, we need to simply execute the laws we already have in place instead.

Yes, I do think it makes a difference.. there would need to be differentiation between each party (in what they promised, what they stand for etc) so voters could decide which serves their interests best.. and that would make it harder for the corps & lobbyists to buy them all..
Imo gridlock has been, is now & will continue to be a great part of this country's economic collapse.. the 1% have faired well, any paper losses have been recouped and fresh profits are rolling in for them.. most of the rest are still in bad shape, imo, and the next recession will hit them harder imo.. I don't think the minor "good" thing about gridlock is enough of a reason to support it.. but I know that gridlock situation is just not going to change, especially cuz people simply accept it..

Gridlock is better than not having gridlock, imo. But, I do understand that you and I have different views on the role government should play in our every day lives. I wonder how much better society would be in if they spent as much time working to increase their financial well being (which is not just punching a clock, but includes, among other things, working to improve their marketable skills) as they do whining and griping about what someone else makes (not a comment on you, personally).

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