RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (Full Version)

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Slipstreme -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 12:41:44 PM)

quote:

BDSM-where did it start....
Bondage started with the first knot
Discipline..... with the first person to say "no" and the first punishment
Sadism....with the first who realized they could feel pleasure from the infliction of pain on others, term derived from the Marquis de Sade
Masochism....with the first who realized that with the appropriate circumstances...pain is pleasure.
and if you include Domination & Submission
Domination....with the first who discovered that they liked having control over another
Submission.....with the first that discovered they liked being controlled by another


I love this post.

Which begs a question. Does it really matter when it really started? Where and how far back does one need to know? For the most part there have been snippets of BDSM throughout history, long before it could have been handed down in books.

The socially free have long since tended to ignore and repress those below them, so I am not surprised most of the information out there on the subject of perversion is from the higher classes.  
..............................................................................................
A bit off topic. There are subjects on these two further back in the boards. You can search for them.

On the subject of De Sade and Shaucer-Masoch, there is argument as to whether or not they could be considered founders at all, or whether they should be granted that privilage, at least as far as consentual S&M goes. De Sade's writings are filled with nonconsentual acts of sexual brutality, and almost every social taboo possible (interesting books to say the least). However, in life, I believe that the author has been branded with the "your writings depict what you did in life" brush that smacks artists and authors in their metaphorical ass all the time. (Don't believe me? Spend time on a furry image board! I have seen so many responses as "that is so gross. You are getting off on the idea of *yada yada yada, insert fetish blasting here*" without remembering it is fantasy, and most people's darkest fantasies never leave paper.) My own art and writing has been blasted for its strangeness and severity. A small group does believe that De Sade, though a nympho, was more or less a consentual sadist, with masochistic leanings as well. His only problem was that he couldn't get the dosages right on Spanish Fly (an aphrodesiac that in too high doses is a poison) and did kill someone with it. He has also suffered the wrath of families when they found out what him and their young ladies were up to. I think there is only one case I've read about where he did actually rape a girl, of course, after she withdrew consent she had already given (a prostitute who had been paid). I'm still reading the works of De Sade and his bios.

According to what I've read, Masoch, who seems on the outside to espouse everything consentual masochism could be, and what the Master/slave relationship is, was actually a very manipulative SAM. He would use his writings (needing inspiration, if he didn't write, he didn't get money, and females were not able to do much at the time) to force his wife into being the sadistic Mistress he sought. During that time, his wife was his property, and used that fact to his advantage to get what he wanted of her.

However, I think they may be looking down on us in the here and now, and are probably very jealous. All they would have to do in this day and age is simply, ask. :P




Slipstreme -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 12:43:50 PM)

quote:

I've seen no indication Hitler was a sadist.  He didn't attend torture sessions or executions.  He did look at pictures but that seemed to be more for gloating and reassurance than jerk off material.

Sure he ordered millions killed.  Oscar  Mayer orders millions killed.  Sure their victims aren't human, but Hitler felt the same way.  That ain't sadism; is social pathology.


Agreed. He really isn't a good example, by any standards.




Amaros -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 2:08:40 PM)

I won't go into all the evolutionary dynamics involved, you can search for some of my other posts if you're interested, but as a dynamic, it's been around in some form for for most of recorded history, although it seems to have become a cultural phenomona with the founding of Christianity and Islam, both with distinctly androcentric D/S interpersonal social dynamic at their core: male dominance, corporeal punishment, etc., were mainstream "family values" well into the latter half of the Twentieth century in Western culture, they still apply in many parts of the world.

BDSM lifestyle, as Mr. Warren points out, is based on choice, not social coercion, and thus a distinct phenomona, and seems to have begun to emerge into the mainstream around the time of the enlightenment, Masoch, De Sade, etc., although it probobly had it's roots in the underlying general social unrest that paved the way for the enlightenment, Satanism, brought on by the excesses of religious zeal - I suggest Michalet's Satansim and Witchcraft for a glimpse into the social dynamic involved - in some sense a form of civil disobedience, the sexual side of which fed off of Catholic sexual repression - Michalet explores ome of the more famous incidents of pathologial sexual neurosis in the latter half  of the book, including the events at Loudon upon which Ken Russell's The Devils is based, fascinating stuff.

So anyway, that would be the timeline as I would break it up: a classical period, which would include classical cultures - although this period would seem to be more concerned with debauchery in general, one assumes that D/S dynamics were likely involved in specific instances.

The theocratic phase, including the excesses of Sprenger, etc., in which there is a very twisted sexual dynamic underlying, then a sort of neo-Pagan re-emergence, and then the Victorian phase, where BDSM shows signs of being an independent, mature social dynamic, without the overtones of either aristocratic excess or social/civil disobedience - although these remain as aspects, the actual dynamics of the D/S relationship becomes central.

Re:Hitler - it really is too bad, but NAZI Germany is an excellent example of a number of social pathologies that ought to concern us - the thing here is that this was a modern country, and the lesson is that if could happen there, it could happen anywhere. I believe it's critical to attempt to understand the social dynamics involved, it's really the most significant social event of the Twentieth century, if only because of the high prices paid in human life - the fact that references to it are often perfunctory, or interpreted as such notwithstanding.





missturbation -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 2:41:41 PM)

Cavmen of course - they ragged their women round by the hair and beat them with clubs all the time!!




champagnewishes -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 8:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would say about the time some single celled rotifer started up in the primordal soup and flagellated the single celled rotifer next to it, noticed it was getting all hot,  and the two became four and so on.


I'll have to agree with Ron on this one....for lack of any other concrete answer. 

For as many reasons as people have for doing what we do, there are that many answers as to where did BDSM come from.  It's a continual work in progress being influenced by a diverse group of people, each bringing their own flair to the table.  Like snowflakes, there are no two alike.




Mavis -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/6/2006 11:02:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

Where did Bdsm Come from?


Al gore invented it.
    ~signed   Donna P.

<giggles, runs>




Emperor1956 -> RE: Where did Bdsm Come from, Who started it? (7/7/2006 9:59:43 AM)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

Where did Bdsm Come from?



Al gore invented it.
   ~signed   Donna P.

<giggles, runs>


Yes that's it!  He was listening to some Devo albums that Tipper recommended, and trying to make out the lyrics, when she walked by in that provacative "soccer-mom/social critic/Southern Belle" bernouse she wears, and...well it was all over but the shouting.

E.




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