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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 5:53:39 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Except that evolution in species is no longer a theory...it is fact and has been proven in the science of the laboratory. Scientists have bacteria evolve right before our eyes.

Not a "theory" in the ordinary everyday common man use of the term which substitutes "theory" for "hypothesis." However, evolution is not a "fact." It is a scientific theory. And it could be wrong. Just not likely. A scientific theory is an explanation of facts and observations. It is always open to change.

This is when terminology gets sloppy and things get confused.
Evolution is a fact. It happens. We can observe it both in the field and in the lab.

The Theory of Evolution is the best scientific explanation of that fact. This corresponds with how other theories explain other observed facts.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 5:55:30 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		What causes genetic mutation? I realize that man can act upon genes and change them but, before we could, what caused them?





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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 6:22:47 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

What causes genetic mutation? I realize that man can act upon genes and change them but, before we could, what caused them?

lots of things: ionizing radiation, certain chemicals, viral infections and most commonly a mistake just occurs during the copying of the DNA during cell replication.

DNA can be thought of as a 4 letter code (A, C, G, T). Groups of 3 of those "letters" make up a codon which represents a single amino acid in the protein the gene codes for (genes are the instructions for making proteins). So the most basic mutation is a change in one of those letters. That can result in a different amino acid being put into a protein which can have little effect or completely ruin it.

Larger copying errors result in entire sections of a gene being copied into the chromosome more than once or backwards or in a new location.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 2/8/2014 6:24:06 AM >

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 6:24:10 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
What causes genetic mutation? I realize that man can act upon genes and change them but, before we could, what caused them?



You're acting like this is a complete unknown...


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-01/8-percent-human-dna-comes-virus-causes-schizophrenia
8 Percent of Human Genome Was Inserted By Virus, and May Cause Schizophrenia


We do understand (see below), and are using that understanding to increase our medical knowledge(see above).

http://genetics.thetech.org/about-genetics/mutations-and-disease

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 6:28:06 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

This is when terminology gets sloppy and things get confused.
Evolution is a fact. It happens. We can observe it both in the field and in the lab.

The Theory of Evolution is the best scientific explanation of that fact. This corresponds with how other theories explain other observed facts.



My understanding is that Evolution is the fact and Natural Selection is the theory and that the official name of the theory is "Evolution by Means of Natural Selection."

The problem is that English is a lazy lipped language. We are always shortening things (automobile becomes auto, electronic computer becomes computer, etc).

This is how "the Theory of Evolution by means of Natural Selection" became "the Theory of Evolution." That, combined with the common (unscientific) usage of theory
to mean "guess," (and with a dollop of wishful thinking about vengeful gods who will smite our enemies) is why we get nonsensical statements like "Evolution is a theory, not a fact."





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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 6:38:39 AM   
Laurielee


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Status: offline 		Of course there's a god. You think the perfection that is me came about by chance?

*sucks teeth*

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 6:42:55 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

DNA can be thought of as a 4 letter code (A, C, G, T).


It could be. By people who don't know what they're talking about and are totally incorrect in even the most basic aspects of the topic.

I mean, who would parade such ignorance as to confuse the nucleobases (guanine, adenine, thymine, and cytosine) with the actual molecule!

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 9:15:05 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

What causes genetic mutation? I realize that man can act upon genes and change them but, before we could, what caused them?





There are numerous natural mutagens.

Chemicals (both naturally occurring and man made) can be mutagens.

Radionuclides can be mutagens. (remember all the cool science fiction from the 50's?)

UV light from the sun is the most common mutagen.

There are dozens more.

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 9:46:23 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My understanding is that Evolution is the fact and Natural Selection is the theory...


I don't think it's quite so simple, for instance sexual selection and artificial selection(selective breeding) immediantly come to mind.

Words quite often have more than one meaning *shrug* Even science as Bill pointed out during the debate means two different things, it's a body of knowledge but it's also the procedure by which that knowledge was collected.

Evolution is similarly two different things, a fact and a theory.


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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:03:25 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Except that evolution in species is no longer a theory...it is fact and has been proven in the science of the laboratory. Scientists have bacteria evolve right before our eyes.

Not a "theory" in the ordinary everyday common man use of the term which substitutes "theory" for "hypothesis." However, evolution is not a "fact." It is a scientific theory. And it could be wrong. Just not likely. A scientific theory is an explanation of facts and observations. It is always open to change.

This is when terminology gets sloppy and things get confused.
Evolution is a fact. It happens. We can observe it both in the field and in the lab.

The Theory of Evolution is the best scientific explanation of that fact. This corresponds with how other theories explain other observed facts.

The Theory of Evolution is that speciation occurred by Natural Selection. We witness the fairly obvious changes in bacteria in response to antibiotics and changes in viruses in response to our immune changes, but what changes in speciation have we observed by natural selection in the field?

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:09:37 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

What causes genetic mutation? I realize that man can act upon genes and change them but, before we could, what caused them?





There are numerous natural mutagens.

Chemicals (both naturally occurring and man made) can be mutagens.

Radionuclides can be mutagens. (remember all the cool science fiction from the 50's?)

UV light from the sun is the most common mutagen.

There are dozens more.

Also, while not strictly mutations, genes can be turned on or off by methylation resulting from environmental influences that cause hormonal excesses in the body.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:15:19 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My understanding is that Evolution is the fact and Natural Selection is the theory...


I don't think it's quite so simple, for instance sexual selection and artificial selection(selective breeding) immediantly come to mind.

Words quite often have more than one meaning *shrug* Even science as Bill pointed out during the debate means two different things, it's a body of knowledge but it's also the procedure by which that knowledge was collected.

Evolution is similarly two different things, a fact and a theory.



Sexual selection doesn't really lead to new species, does it? I would discount the mule since it is infertile. And artificial selection is sorta outside the box.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:35:54 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

This is when terminology gets sloppy and things get confused.
Evolution is a fact. It happens. We can observe it both in the field and in the lab.

The Theory of Evolution is the best scientific explanation of that fact. This corresponds with how other theories explain other observed facts.



My understanding is that Evolution is the fact and Natural Selection is the theory and that the official name of the theory is "Evolution by Means of Natural Selection."

The problem is that English is a lazy lipped language. We are always shortening things (automobile becomes auto, electronic computer becomes computer, etc).

This is how "the Theory of Evolution by means of Natural Selection" became "the Theory of Evolution." That, combined with the common (unscientific) usage of theory
to mean "guess," (and with a dollop of wishful thinking about vengeful gods who will smite our enemies) is why we get nonsensical statements like "Evolution is a theory, not a fact."

The Theory of Evolution covers more than just selection.

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:38:50 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
You're acting like this is a complete unknown...

That's how faux innocent denial works as a rhetorical device.


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:42:06 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

DNA can be thought of as a 4 letter code (A, C, G, T).


It could be. By people who don't know what they're talking about and are totally incorrect in even the most basic aspects of the topic.

I mean, who would parade such ignorance as to confuse the nucleobases (guanine, adenine, thymine, and cytosine) with the actual molecule!

Someone who was describing what DNA does inside the cell. Which was the part you edited out. Would you have me spend a few thousand lines discussing sugars, bases, RNA, transcription, translation, ribosomes and all the rest of the stuff actually necessary to explain mutations?

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:45:35 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My understanding is that Evolution is the fact and Natural Selection is the theory...


I don't think it's quite so simple, for instance sexual selection and artificial selection(selective breeding) immediantly come to mind.

Words quite often have more than one meaning *shrug* Even science as Bill pointed out during the debate means two different things, it's a body of knowledge but it's also the procedure by which that knowledge was collected.

Evolution is similarly two different things, a fact and a theory.



Sexual selection doesn't really lead to new species, does it? I would discount the mule since it is infertile. And artificial selection is sorta outside the box.

Sexual selection almost certainly does lead to new species.

Consider a population of animals. Some of the females prefer to mate with the males that have red pigment while another segment of the female population prefers blue pigment. Those two populations could easily split into new species.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:55:51 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I don't think it's quite so simple, for instance sexual selection and artificial selection(selective breeding) immediantly come to mind.


I didn't go into a lot of detail because it wasn't necessary to the point I was making which is that evolution is a fact. The fossil record, our understanding of genetics, experiments in the lab and observations in the field have proven it beyond any doubt.
What causes evolution? That's where theories come in because that is what theories do, they explain facts.

quote:

Words quite often have more than one meaning *shrug* Even science as Bill pointed out during the debate means two different things, it's a body of knowledge but it's also the procedure by which that knowledge was collected.

That too has been one of my points on this thread. The problem is that creationists often use a meaning that is incorrect because they don't know the proper meaning (and thus they are ignorant) or know but pretend not to (and thus are deceitful).

quote:

Evolution is similarly two different things, a fact and a theory.


That's like saying peanut butter is both peanuts and the farmer who grew the peanuts. Yeah, of course words have more than one meaning. That is obvious. I am talking about the misuse of multiple meanings, either out of ignorance or
malice. I accept that the word "evolution" is often used in common parlance (even among scientists!) to refer to the theory, the same way many use the term Big Bang Theory to refer to Inflation Theory. The fact remains that the big question
is not if we evolved but how. For that we have a theory involving genetic mutation and natural selection.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 2/8/2014 10:57:15 AM >

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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:55:52 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you made a bunch of claims about a subject which you know nothing about.

Well then I'm sure you'll be happy to quote them so people won't think you're just making shit up.

I'll get the popcorn.

K.


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RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 10:57:58 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I don't have to do anything, except point out blatant logical fallacies and watch the predictable reactions.

You claimed that something was an Appeal to Authority fallacy when it wasn't, and you got busted.

Now you don't have to do anything except get over it.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Evolution/Creation debate - 2/8/2014 11:03:15 AM   
CandiDanielz


Posts: 36
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline 		Can I add my opinion without being attacked?
I believe that God is real. I also believe life is mysterious and everyone has their own opinion.

There is no need to shove it in people's face or call them wrong or idiots.
Il believe what i like.
If im wrong im wrong it's my choice
:)

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Profile   Post #: 120
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