RE: For profit Prisons are evil:

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BamaD -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 8:02:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR If we used the death penalty as often as it is justified by the crimes, we wouldn't be dealing with these overcrowding issues. The real savings in the private prison industry isn't on the inmate security and care costs, but in that we aren't dealing with a corrupt and evil public employee union that believes guards need to be on the clock as they walk from their cars to the locker room, to get dressed for work and then back to the cars after they have showered and changed clothes, and retirement plans where they can quit working and start collecting a pension check in their early 40's. I have always wondered how these things could save the government money.

Winterapple -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 8:31:51 PM)
Prisons for profit are morally corrupt, ethically indefensible, a blight on American society that destroys communities and lives and keeps asinine laws for nonviolent criminals from being reformed. Zero tolerance is idiocy made into law and the profiteers are exploiting it for all its worth. The idea that a society should make no attempt in its prison system to rehabilitate is archaic. You make the effort. You especially make it for young nonviolent offenders who have few if any life skills. It's also not a either/or thing. Just because there is an effort to rehabilitate a prisoner before they are allowed back into society doesn't mean they aren't being punished for their crime unless punishment is understood to be working on a chain gang or Ipso facto slavery.

DomKen -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 8:37:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR If we used the death penalty as often as it is justified by the crimes, we wouldn't be dealing with these overcrowding issues. The real savings in the private prison industry isn't on the inmate security and care costs, but in that we aren't dealing with a corrupt and evil public employee union that believes guards need to be on the clock as they walk from their cars to the locker room, to get dressed for work and then back to the cars after they have showered and changed clothes, and retirement plans where they can quit working and start collecting a pension check in their early 40's. I have always wondered how these things could save the government money. You didn't really believe that did you? How for profit prisons really save the state money: make the inmates work (they do a lot of telemarketing) charge the inmates for everything (look into the collect calls from jail racket) (they even charge families for visits by providing bus transport at high rates) feed the prisoners the cheapest slop they can get away with provide no services to the prisoners at all except what is court ordered and skimp on that use far fewer guards and pay far less than state prisons do (they just hope nothing bad happens)

BamaD -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 8:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR If we used the death penalty as often as it is justified by the crimes, we wouldn't be dealing with these overcrowding issues. The real savings in the private prison industry isn't on the inmate security and care costs, but in that we aren't dealing with a corrupt and evil public employee union that believes guards need to be on the clock as they walk from their cars to the locker room, to get dressed for work and then back to the cars after they have showered and changed clothes, and retirement plans where they can quit working and start collecting a pension check in their early 40's. I have always wondered how these things could save the government money. You didn't really believe that did you? How for profit prisons really save the state money: make the inmates work (they do a lot of telemarketing) charge the inmates for everything (look into the collect calls from jail racket) (they even charge families for visits by providing bus transport at high rates) feed the prisoners the cheapest slop they can get away with provide no services to the prisoners at all except what is court ordered and skimp on that use far fewer guards and pay far less than state prisons do (they just hope nothing bad happens) 40 years ago I was playing postal chess with a convicted murderer. He was doing life. And he was a computer programmer for the Mo dept of revenue. A skill the evil system taught him, and a job they got him.

DomKen -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 9:35:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR If we used the death penalty as often as it is justified by the crimes, we wouldn't be dealing with these overcrowding issues. The real savings in the private prison industry isn't on the inmate security and care costs, but in that we aren't dealing with a corrupt and evil public employee union that believes guards need to be on the clock as they walk from their cars to the locker room, to get dressed for work and then back to the cars after they have showered and changed clothes, and retirement plans where they can quit working and start collecting a pension check in their early 40's. I have always wondered how these things could save the government money. You didn't really believe that did you? How for profit prisons really save the state money: make the inmates work (they do a lot of telemarketing) charge the inmates for everything (look into the collect calls from jail racket) (they even charge families for visits by providing bus transport at high rates) feed the prisoners the cheapest slop they can get away with provide no services to the prisoners at all except what is court ordered and skimp on that use far fewer guards and pay far less than state prisons do (they just hope nothing bad happens) 40 years ago I was playing postal chess with a convicted murderer. He was doing life. And he was a computer programmer for the Mo dept of revenue. A skill the evil system taught him, and a job they got him. So?

EdBowie -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 10:00:37 PM)
Siiiigh... Government prisons have been working inmates for decades. Unless it's changed, all the office furniture in the entire GSA catalog has been made inside the Bureau Of Prisons, Angola prisoners have long fed themselves and the staff on the prison farm, etc. For profit corrections is a Ponzi scheme which promises 'We can sell you better quality COs, keep them by paying them better than the open market, run a more humane and liability free facility housing more prisoners, and come in as low bidder every time... while our stock holders split millions in profit.' Believe that if you must.

subfever -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/7/2014 10:50:06 PM)
quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people?

Artisculation2 -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:29:47 AM)
The privatisation of state functions like private prisons is and of itself openly corrupt governance and an abdication by the state of its responsibilities. If the state desides to lock someone up, the state should tak full responsibility for the person it locks up and not delegate that responsiblity to profit making corporations, which are known for psychopathic behavioural patterns.

Artisculation2 -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:33:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people? One could start by asking, why does the USA lock up so many more people per capita than any other western country? Maybe the USA has a problem of its own making?

PeonForHer -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:54:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Artisculation2 One could start by asking, why does the USA lock up so many more people per capita than any other western country? Because the USA loves freedom so much. Er . . . .

DaddySatyr -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:58:58 AM)
I remember being against New Jersey privatizing their DMV system. I was sure it was going to be a mess (especially for me). It turns out that services (as far as I could tell) were *better* for me. However, there are certain government services that should never be privatized (and certain private services that should never be taken over by the government). Living where I live now, in Luzerne County, Pennsyltucky, there was a "kids for cash" scandal where a judge was sending minors to prisons for cash kick-backs. I think privatized prisons are rife for abusing the system and we are talking about taking away peoples' freedom. I think we need to err on the side of caution.

eulero83 -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 4:12:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Artisculation2 quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people? One could start by asking, why does the USA lock up so many more people per capita than any other western country? Maybe the USA has a problem of its own making? there is an attitude I noticed in many members from the usa answering in this part of the forum: when it comes to social problems the answer is always to be harsher and more repressive, the only exception are self defence or gun control, so if this attitude is also embraced by the legislators then you end with more people in jails. This goes by with another concept, that breaking the law no matter how petty the infraction is makes you a criminal and a danger for society, like you are damaged good just for the insubordination, also this concept if used in laws can lead to more people incarcerated.

EdBowie -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 11:31:59 AM)
If simply defying social control were the case, then American prisons would also be full of people doing 10 years for speeding, and 5 years for overdue library books, and so on. There has to be a perceived (or manufactured) threat to the status quo to rationalize a war in return... the war on drugs, on crime, on poverty, on terrorism... prisons are the waste bins for a society that wars upon itself and its people. Note that nobody knows how many people China actually incarcerates and executes. I'll bet that as their middle class booms, they will easily outstrip the US on those things. Also note that when it was England's turn on top, they used entire continents to dump their convicts. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: Artisculation2 quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people? One could start by asking, why does the USA lock up so many more people per capita than any other western country? Maybe the USA has a problem of its own making? there is an attitude I noticed in many members from the usa answering in this part of the forum: when it comes to social problems the answer is always to be harsher and more repressive, the only exception are self defence or gun control, so if this attitude is also embraced by the legislators then you end with more people in jails. This goes by with another concept, that breaking the law no matter how petty the infraction is makes you a criminal and a danger for society, like you are damaged good just for the insubordination, also this concept if used in laws can lead to more people incarcerated.

subfever -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 11:57:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Artisculation2 quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people? One could start by asking, why does the USA lock up so many more people per capita than any other western country? Maybe the USA has a problem of its own making? While I'm not convinced that your question is relevant to the question of morality as it applies to the capitalist application to prisoners vs. patients, your question as a stand-alone is a good one. Countries with higher stratification produce higher levels of dysfunction, including incarceration rates. Whereas countries with lower stratification produce lower levels of dysfunction and incarceration. Dysfunction includes corruption.

BamaD -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 12:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR If we used the death penalty as often as it is justified by the crimes, we wouldn't be dealing with these overcrowding issues. The real savings in the private prison industry isn't on the inmate security and care costs, but in that we aren't dealing with a corrupt and evil public employee union that believes guards need to be on the clock as they walk from their cars to the locker room, to get dressed for work and then back to the cars after they have showered and changed clothes, and retirement plans where they can quit working and start collecting a pension check in their early 40's. I have always wondered how these things could save the government money. You didn't really believe that did you? How for profit prisons really save the state money: make the inmates work (they do a lot of telemarketing) charge the inmates for everything (look into the collect calls from jail racket) (they even charge families for visits by providing bus transport at high rates) feed the prisoners the cheapest slop they can get away with provide no services to the prisoners at all except what is court ordered and skimp on that use far fewer guards and pay far less than state prisons do (they just hope nothing bad happens) 40 years ago I was playing postal chess with a convicted murderer. He was doing life. And he was a computer programmer for the Mo dept of revenue. A skill the evil system taught him, and a job they got him. So? So they have always given prisoners work for which they get paid far less than the going rate. It gives the prisoners some money. It gives them something to do besides making trouble. It offsets the cost of keeping them. It provides them, in many cases with a skill, for example furniture making. This is by no stretch of the imagination limited to privatized prisons. I don't like the concept of private reasons either, but make your arguments rational.

DomKen -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 1:06:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So they have always given prisoners work for which they get paid far less than the going rate. It gives the prisoners some money. It gives them something to do besides making trouble. It offsets the cost of keeping them. It provides them, in many cases with a skill, for example furniture making. This is by no stretch of the imagination limited to privatized prisons. I don't like the concept of private reasons either, but make your arguments rational. But those jobs were either to offset the cost to the state or to provide income to the inmates. At for profit prisons it is strictly to enrich the owners of the prisons and making license plates is not in competition with private industry.

BamaD -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 1:46:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So they have always given prisoners work for which they get paid far less than the going rate. It gives the prisoners some money. It gives them something to do besides making trouble. It offsets the cost of keeping them. It provides them, in many cases with a skill, for example furniture making. This is by no stretch of the imagination limited to privatized prisons. I don't like the concept of private reasons either, but make your arguments rational. But those jobs were either to offset the cost to the state or to provide income to the inmates. At for profit prisons it is strictly to enrich the owners of the prisons and making license plates is not in competition with private industry. In both cases it was to provide more money for management. Pretending that profit is in and of itself is evil sidesteps the real questions. Who does the job better? And which costs the taxpayers the least? Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

Artisculation2 -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:25:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: For profit Prisons are evil: How is this morally different than 1/5th of our entire GDP being predicated upon feeding off of sick and dying people? They aren't. The US private heathcare insurance system is sick and corrupt too.

Artisculation2 -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:31:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD In both cases it was to provide more money for management. Pretending that profit is in and of itself is evil sidesteps the real questions. Who does the job better? And which costs the taxpayers the least? Everything else is smoke and mirrors. If a private company is doing the government's dirty business and is making a profit, it is making it at the tax payers expense. But the corruption and the immorality is, it is the state that is incarcerating the prisoner and the state should take responibility and not delegate it to corrupt private corporations. I'm sure many rightwingers would like to see the state disappear altogether apart from paramilitary agencies to subjugate the people rightwingers don't like.

Yachtie -> RE: For profit Prisons are evil: (2/8/2014 3:36:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Artisculation2 If a private company is doing the government's dirty business and is making a profit, it is making it at the tax payers expense. But the corruption and the immorality is, it is the state that is incarcerating the prisoner and the state should take responibility and not delegate it to corrupt private corporations. Heartily agree here. It's the involuntary working of the inmate for a private 'for profit' business which takes it from a quasi-legal servitude to full peonage.

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