RE: Gods of the New Millennium (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:21:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Am I the only one who finds all this von Daniken bullshit patronising and offensive?
"Oh, these savages couldn't have achieved this that or t'other on their own: the aliens must have done it for them."
FFS...

Gee, I don't know. If a Jewish person finds it perfectly acceptable to say...date or even have a love interest with a Christian or maybe even a Muslin, would their date or better, their families upon fining out...feel that their relationship patronizing and offensive ? I wouldn't be alone to feel that as compared to us now...ancient man...was savage. OR, at least a bit more savage than we are hey ?

Do you know that ancient man wasn't savage ? Are you aware that while Cro-Magnon fucking Neanderthal may have been the world's first miscegenation, that in the end...CroMagnon wiped out Neanderthal ?

You're seriously equating dating somebody outside of your own ethnic group with cross species miscegenation?




Darkfeather -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:27:30 PM)

You sir, don't know what you are talking about. Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today. Please learn the facts before you continue to spout these inane theories... governments hiding artifacts in hidden warehouses from secret dig sites, good lord. You have watched one to many Indiana Jones movies...




MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:33:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

OP, you are mistaking probability for fact.

The leading argument in most of your statements is that a thing is not known, and numbers are playing a side show. Let's put them to light by quoting Bill Bryson from A Short History of Nearly Everything:

The chances of a 1,055-sequence molecule like collagen spontaneously self-assembling are, frankly, nil. It just isn’t going to happen. To grasp what a long shot its existence is, visualize a standard Las Vegas slot machine but broadened greatly—to about ninety feet, to be precise—to accommodate 1,055 spinning wheels instead of the usual three or four, and with twenty symbols on each wheel (one for each common amino acid).1

1 There are actually twenty-two naturally occurring amino acids known on Earth, and more may await discovery, but only twenty of them are necessary to produce us and most other living things. The twenty-second, called pyrrolysine, was discovered in 2002 by researchers at Ohio State University and is found only in a single type of archaean (a basic form of life that we will discuss a little further on in the story) called Methanosarcina barkeri.

What Bill is saying here is that the statistical likelihood of life is incredibly low. This is not justification for aliens, any more than it could be said that if I type out 1,055 letters of the alphabet and you guessed the exact order, that aliens gave you the answer. However low the odds, there is a chance you could, in fact, do it.

Now to address what is known and what is not, also through statistics. If a thing is right or wrong, and equal chances are assigned, then by your theory evolution is as likely as aliens. If I tossed a coin, and said while the coin was in midair that heads meant aliens created us, does the coin landing heads up make the statement I made, true? Impartiality can grant equal odds if one ignores any other possible factors, but that's the key, isn't it. What are the odds, and if you claim impartiality, can you create a statistical theoretical model that in fact matches reality? The odds of doing so might be better than Bill's slot machines, but low is low, high is high, and to let one lead to a conclusion destroys any impartiality one might have had.

If you need me, I'm wandering off, calculator in hand.

(edited for a typo, which set off my OCD)

Well in no. 1 you have what's found on earth. Man has in fact discovered amino acids in space and also keep in mind the odds that with it a fact that there is intelligent life in the universe proves beyond all doubt that it exists, then it could also be...somewhere besides earth.

All of which confirms no matter the odds that life could have existed millennium ago, could have visited earth and could have fucked with man.




MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:35:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You sir, don't know what you are talking about. Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today. Please learn the facts before you continue to spout these inane theories... governments hiding artifacts in hidden warehouses from secret dig sites, good lord. You have watched one to many Indiana Jones movies...

Google is your friend and it...even have more pictures.




Darkfeather -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:41:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You sir, don't know what you are talking about. Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today. Please learn the facts before you continue to spout these inane theories... governments hiding artifacts in hidden warehouses from secret dig sites, good lord. You have watched one to many Indiana Jones movies...

Google is your friend and it...even have more pictures.


[sm=Groaner.gif]




MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:42:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Am I the only one who finds all this von Daniken bullshit patronising and offensive?
"Oh, these savages couldn't have achieved this that or t'other on their own: the aliens must have done it for them."
FFS...

Gee, I don't know. If a Jewish person finds it perfectly acceptable to say...date or even have a love interest with a Christian or maybe even a Muslin, would their date or better, their families upon fining out...feel that their relationship patronizing and offensive ? I wouldn't be alone to feel that as compared to us now...ancient man...was savage. OR, at least a bit more savage than we are hey ?

Do you know that ancient man wasn't savage ? Are you aware that while Cro-Magnon fucking Neanderthal may have been the world's first miscegenation, that in the end...CroMagnon wiped out Neanderthal ?

You're seriously equating dating somebody outside of your own ethnic group with cross species miscegenation?

No, I am equating the idea that such scientific discoveries about ancient man. should be no more patronizing or offensive than the discovery of such a relationship. Then added that man was savage enough to mix with and then wipe out an entire species.




RemoteUser -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:47:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well in no. 1 you have what's found on earth. Man has in fact discovered amino acids in space and also keep in mind the odds that with it a fact that there is intelligent life in the universe proves beyond all doubt that it exists, then it could also be...somewhere besides earth.

All of which confirms no matter the odds that life could have existed millennium ago, could have visited earth and could have fucked with man.


Stick with could, at least by staying within the mathematical boundaries you won't fall over the precipice of certainty.




Moonhead -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:47:23 PM)

And a book published by an osteopath is a "scientific discovery" rather than speculation how, exactly?




MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:55:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Apart from, you know, archeology. You'd think if Alford was onto something, they might have dug up some evidence of alien intervention by now, wouldn't you?

There's' plenty of evidence out there and even on evolutionary development prior to Alford's assertions.

The whole von Daniken and aliens have been debunked many times.

There are many websites that debunk him and his followers.
This is just one: http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/tag/erich-von-daniken/

There's NO evidence whatsoever - it's all conjecture and very biased supposition.


That doesn't debunk shit. All that does is go after a fucking movie. There is no evidence in mysticism, no evidence of our modern gods either. I guess great books are evidence hey ?

There is mountain of evidence all over the world that earth has been visited, is still being visited and everybody is free to believe only the books. I choose to believe the evidence.




ARIES83 -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:57:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You sir, don't know what you are talking about. Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today.

Hmm, I'm not a currency expert, and I have no idea about that coin but I'm pretty sure that the biggest factor determining the value of coinage until relatively recently, has been its metal value.

So... A coper coin was worth it's weight in copper... Silver in silver, gold in gold.
That being said I'm not sure I get your question. There have been coins of all those denominations throughout history.




RemoteUser -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:58:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I choose to believe the evidence.


Exercising Personal Freedoms, 1.
Objectivity and Rationality, 0.





MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 2:59:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well in no. 1 you have what's found on earth. Man has in fact discovered amino acids in space and also keep in mind the odds that with it a fact that there is intelligent life in the universe proves beyond all doubt that it exists, then it could also be...somewhere besides earth.

All of which confirms no matter the odds that life could have existed millennium ago, could have visited earth and could have fucked with man.


Stick with could, at least by staying within the mathematical boundaries you won't fall over the precipice of certainty.


Absolute certainty in the complete history of man and his gods or the books about them...is nowhere to be found.




MrRodgers -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 3:00:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I choose to believe the evidence.


Exercising Personal Freedoms, 1.
Objectivity and Rationality, 0.



I an being open minded and use a mind not closed to that beyond books and mysticism.




Darkfeather -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 3:27:59 PM)

There is a difference between being open minded, and wearing a tin-foiled pyramid on your head and chanting to the allgods. But hey, you obviously know where google is, start showing us these proofs. Of alien intervention, of government coverups, etc. Because believe me, if any of that crap existed, in this the 21st century we would have found it. If we can dig up photos of Britney Spears vag as she is getting out of a car, I am pretty sure someone can snap a pic (not an "artist's rendition" mind you) of an alien. But it hasn't happened. No alien ships have invaded, no E.T.s have come down offering us the cure to cancer in exchange for a glass of water, no giant robots have gone on a rampage disintegrating entire cities. Nothing. Does intelligent life exist out there, who knows, space if fucking big, incomprehensibly big. But that also works against your little theory. Why, because to find our little needle of a blue planet in the giant haystack of a universe, those frikkin aliens would have to be some really lucky sons-a-bitches




RemoteUser -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 3:37:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I choose to believe the evidence.


Exercising Personal Freedoms, 1.
Objectivity and Rationality, 0.


I an being open minded and use a mind not closed to that beyond books and mysticism.


Choice defies objectivity. The moment you make a choice, you close off all the other choices that led in other directions.

That said, choice is obviously a necessity to function and grow - but do not confuse it with objectivity. They do not overlap on any Venn diagram you might conceive of mapping any rational human behaviour or thought.




crazyml -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 4:08:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The science of genetics is only about 144 years old


Hmm... I guess it rather depends on how you define a "Science" in the context of this.

People have been managing the evolution of crops by exploiting natural selection for thousands of years.



Superfluous




You claimed that the science of genetics is only about 144 years old. Which it patently isn't. Farmers have been engaged in the science of genetics for thousands of years. So rather than being "superfluous", I'm pointing out that your argument is specious nonsense.

But hey...






jlf1961 -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 4:10:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Not only does every chart show H ercetus going to (in millions of years) Neanderthal and CroMagnon but then to what ? The last on the chart...US or H Sapien.

But neither you or conventional science has proven where the leap of knowledge took place. Even Darwin said the fossil record in incomplete. It is precisely because and irrespective of any absolute transitional fossil record that science cannot explain intellect and that there has been no explanation for that after millions of years and at about 184,000 years ago, man began to acquire knowledge (increase in the size of the brain and language) anything even similar to that and what is suggested, is the very basis of the knowledge man has now.






First of all, Cro-Magnon is no longer the accepted term, European Early Modern Humans (EEMH) is, since we (Modern Humans) are them, they are just the 43000 year old version of us. The main differences between EEMH and us is in height and body build, but essentially we are the same species. I mean the average 20th or 21st century human cannot fit into a suit of medieval armor because we are too tall.

Add to that the fact that European descended humans, and many asian descended humans happen to have a good mix of Neanderthal genes in our DNA. You want to find pure, untainted, true humans, go to Africa. (Boy do White Supremacists have it wrong) If anything, with few exceptions, any human from outside the African continent is a hybrid.

Now to address this ancient astronaut bullshit.

If anything happened over night in the evolution of humans, it was the move from using stone to metal to make tools, and even that took a few thousand years. There was a primitive Native American culture near the great lakes region that began using copper about the same time as those in the Euphrates/Tigris region, and ended up going back to stone tools. The ancient copper mines are there in the region to see, regardless of what that idiot on "Unearthed America" would like you to believe that it was the Minoans.

Otzi, the guy they found in a glacier had both copper and stone tools on him, indicating a slow transition between the two technologies. I dont think an alien species trying to breed a bunch of semi intelligent slaves would want to wait that long to get a bunch of workers.

Furthermore, the Romans had indoor plumbing, (remember?) and the technology was lost in the dark ages.

So human history is full of lost technology, from working stone for building, to metal working to decent indoor plumbing.

Dont try to say that some alien culture came down from space, taught humans to build the pyramids, do intricate stone work or anything else. Even the "Baghdad" battery is easily explained away, considering that humans started electroplating metals for some time.




Dvr22999874 -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 4:46:01 PM)

I'm with you jlf , although in my time at sea around this ball of mud, I have seen some VERY strange things. I have learned not to let them play on my mind too much though...............that way lies madness *smile*.
One thing though............if you can get a hold of a book called 'What Happened When', written around the british Time Team, you will see a pic of one of the nutty bastards wearing a suit of armour ( Tudor or Pre-Tudor, I think), so either the bloke who wore it first could be a big-fella, or Phil, the fella wearing the tin suit could be a bit of a short-ass. Having watched the programme many times, I would bet on the former.
I went to Arundel castle when I was about 8 to 10 years old and there was a suit of armour there that would have fitted me perfectly at the age I was then, so I agree with you again, most of those guys (and it's only 450 years ago) were a hell of a lot shorter than modern man.




jlf1961 -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/8/2014 6:21:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I'm with you jlf , although in my time at sea around this ball of mud, I have seen some VERY strange things. I have learned not to let them play on my mind too much though...............that way lies madness *smile*.
One thing though............if you can get a hold of a book called 'What Happened When', written around the british Time Team, you will see a pic of one of the nutty bastards wearing a suit of armour ( Tudor or Pre-Tudor, I think), so either the bloke who wore it first could be a big-fella, or Phil, the fella wearing the tin suit could be a bit of a short-ass. Having watched the programme many times, I would bet on the former.
I went to Arundel castle when I was about 8 to 10 years old and there was a suit of armour there that would have fitted me perfectly at the age I was then, so I agree with you again, most of those guys (and it's only 450 years ago) were a hell of a lot shorter than modern man.


While working on my master's in history, I did some studies on the physiological differences over the development of modern man. Otzi, the ice man was short and stocky, pretty common for his era, however, as technology developed leading to changes in diet, it seems homo sapiens grew taller, and depending on the prevailing climate, leaner. Peoples indigenous to colder climates maintained a stocky body while increasing in height.

Just like there has been a recent discovery in the genetic makeup of the human species that shows a marked resistance to disease. Interesting enough, it was discovered among the hemophiliac population during the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. It was discovered that some of the patients receiving whole blood never developed HIV or AIDS. Blood tests would reveal the virus in their system, but no antibodies, and eventually the virus seemed to die off. In other words these people just broke the rules and did not get sick.

A researcher got curious and studied their DNA compared to AIDs patients. He noticed that the patients not contracting AIDs had a different genetic make up in one specific area. He traced this back to people that during initial and subsequent plague events in the British isles seemed to initially contract plague, but then seemed to beat it in the first stage. Others just never got it, although DNA tests showed the plague was in their physical remains, found in a portion of the teeth that retained blood at time of death. These individuals died of natural causes, like old age, but not of plague.

Basically a random mutation among a small population has carried on to the present, however still rare.

This prompted studies looking for unique traits that, if allowed, could be introduced to the general population, but that means genetic engineering on humans which is illegal under International Law, UN and other treaties, and most fundamentalist Christian and Islamic religions.

Of course that is a topic for another discussion.




MasterCaneman -> RE: Gods of the New Millennium (2/9/2014 12:46:17 PM)

Point taken, but statistically, that would be an outlying data point. Yes, it survived because it was small, of low relative value, and was probably hidden away on purpose. Suppose instead, the artifact in question is more substantial, say, an automobile or aircraft. I know you've seen abandoned cars in fields before, what do the generally look like? And they've been there only a few decades at best. Imagine what a car would look like a hundred, five hundred, a thousand years from now would look like. Most likely a discolored patch of earth with a durable parts scattered here and there.

And objects we've landed on other planets will be there for awhile as well, but that's not the case here. We're talking about our lovely, violent, and dynamic world, with wind and water action, redistribution of surface material, and other forces that can reduce an artifact to nothing. And we're clever apes. With our big brains and opposable thumbs, over time we'd figure out how to cut, smash, melt and repurpose that broken-down Arcturan space cruiser* over the course of a couple millenia, if natural processes didn't do it first.

And some would argue that we'd be able to find traces of 'alien' materials in man-made artifacts to prove or disprove if they'd visited. The problem with that argument is that matter is fairly universal throughout the universe. Sure, they might have crafted strange alloys and other materials, but they'd use the 'same' kind of matter to do it with. Yes, they can find out if an artifact came from a meteorite by its composition, but over time, as the metals are worked and reworked into other objects, they lose their 'uniqueness' and the ability to trace their original composition. And that would only be if the original source was sufficiently 'weird' enough to even be recognized as coming from elsewhere.

But that's supposing that the artifact/remnant even came from 'out there'. Right now, we're at a point only about five thousand years before 'civilization' as we recognize it began. Our species is essentially the same as it was two hundred thousand years ago, give or take. What's to say 'this has all happened before' (sorry, BSG reference there), and it's now happening again? Why couldn't have our species created 'another' civilization all by themselves without the help of the space brothers, only to either destroy it themselves or have Earth do it to them? Just look at what's left from our known history, a few coins here, a half-rusted sword there, grave offerings, and ruined structures.

Go to any city in the Middle East and Europe and think about the fact that they're built over other ruined cities, sometimes dozens of different layers of time. Floods, earthquakes, volcanoes resurface the land, ocean levels rise and fall, glacial ice can scour mountains down to flatlands, and how much of that hypothetical civilization would remain? The only constant throughout all of this is us, basically. As I said, myths are often just historical facts distorted by time and retelling. If there were alien overlords who came and went, or we're the descendants of survivors of a prehistoric apocalypse, the facts they knew would change over time to suit those telling the story.



*hyperbolic reference only




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