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Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep question) - 2/10/2014 7:59:39 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ok, first let me preface this by saying: If I go this route I will definitely have a certified electrician do the work.

My situation. I rent my home, so naturally I don't want to put a great deal of expenses into it as it belongs to someone else. I have a generator (6250 running watts/8000 starting watts) and have considered looking into having a transfer switch installed to make using it easier. I haven't even looked into the costs, but I was curious if there were those on thse boards who have invested in a transfer switch and if it was recommended. Those who have generators and opted NOT to install a transfer switch, what were your reasonings on not doing so?

Right now, I expect that the generator is usable and while there would be the nusiance of having extenstion chords (yes, they are the heavy duty with proper amp ratings) running through the house it isn't that big of a deal considering it is for emergencies only. It isn't as if I expect to LIVE like that indefinitely.

The only convenience I can see is I wouldn't have to pull out the extension cords and hook them up in a blackout. I'd still have to make the trek outside and fuel and turn on the generator even with a transfer switch. So, I'm thinking maybe I'm either missing a few things or it isn't worth the expense (considering if I move, it is money wasted as I can't very well take an installed transfer switch with me.)

Any ideas? Suggestions?



< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 2/10/2014 8:17:11 AM >
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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 8:58:58 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		The only way I, personally, would consider installing anything in a rental is if it made my quality of life significantly better and had intentions of staying for a long period of time (in addition to having approval from the landlord, of course).

I know the extension cords are a pain. Getting them out, untangling, putting them away...
But, how often are you losing power?

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 9:18:13 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		It is pretty rare to lose electricity. In 3 years we've only lost electricity a few times and only one of those was for an extended period of time.

I know, why even worry about it then?

One reason is my mother is very ill and living with me - now that she relies on me to meet her needs I worry about things a bit more than I ever did. Living in Michigan, the winter gets rather harsh and she isn't easy to get out of the house, so getting to a shelter would be difficult. In addition to my mom, I have connective tissue disease and physical issues so I try to do as many work-arounds as I can to simplify my life and allow me to use my energies in living rather than stressing and spending unwanted downtime ill because I over did it.

The other, less rational reason is I like gadgets. I like power tools and generators and enjoy researching how to use them properly and all that stuff. To me, if it was really a huge advantage in reduction of stress - I"d consider it, even if it was an expense put into a rental property (although I'm not leaning toward that as I don't like putting my money into other peoples houses lol).





< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 2/10/2014 9:19:10 AM >

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 9:52:58 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		Okay, that all makes more sense and is more understandable.
I'm in Michigan, also. We purchased a generator due to several outages and an overflowing sump pump. Moved to Kansas, didn't use the thing at all the years we were there. Moved back to Michigan recently and, almost immediately, had to put it to use again. This last outage was a sonofabitch.

Given what you've said, sounds like it would be beneficial then. I don't believe a transfer switch is incredibly expensive to have a licensed electrician install one so the loss shouldn't be too great, assuming you plan on staying at least a few more years. The cost of stress is usually greater.

If your landlord is okay with it and you're okay with the cost, why not.
We've put a lot of money in our previous rentals with landscaping and hardware. Yeah, the landlord benefited but so did we while we were there. We never regretted it.



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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 2:03:50 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		I am not an electrician, and my prep/survival knowledge is reserved for more wilderness survival, but what I do know is, the switch is there to prevent your backup generator from electrifying wires the power company thinks are dead. If there's a worker down the line, he may get electrocuted if you energize those lines.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 2:12:30 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Sounds like something different:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/3-How-to-Pick-the-Perfect-Manual-Transfer-Switch.html

A manual transfer switch is installed beside the main electrical panel and connected to the circuits you'll want running during a blackout.

When the power goes out, you simply crank up the generator and run a single power cord from it to a transfer switch.

Once the generator is running, you can choose which circuits to energize by simply flipping the switches.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 2:22:13 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, that is one purpose, but it also allows you to choose which circuits you want to provide power to, depending on the generator's specifications. Safety and convenience of not having to unplug appliances and plug them into extension cords is the pro aspect of considering installing a transfer switch.

I wouldn't ever connect the generator directly to the wiring, I know backloading (or whatever it is called) is very dangerous. The higher amp extension cords were kind of expensive (probably around the same price of installing the stupid transfer switch) but as I am not convinced I want to go the transfer switch route I went ahead and bought them.

ETA: or what Kalikshama said

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 4:57:56 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		:)

My family is looking into getting a generator for my 76 yo mother and her younger brother and sister, who both have generators, recommended the transfer switch system to make things easier for her.

I don't mind putting money into a rental. Ideally, I'd be able to take it off my rent, but at my current place the rent is considerably cheaper than apartments with washer/dryer hookups, so I had that put in and footed the bill. I also paid to have it painted (by a friend, so not very expensive.) I bought a medicine cabinet and ceiling fan, which my landlord installed. This spring, I'm probably going to put in a ductless split AC. (My landlord lets me do whatever I want as long as I pay for it, and this includes gardening, which is a major plus.)

If your rent is at market value, perhaps talk to the landlord about taking something off your rent?

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 8:23:48 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		Michigan. Brrrrrrr. 6200 watts is enough for two or three homes, unless electric heat. It is also enough to warm up three or four extension cords real good. Have you ever tripped over an extension cord? Has Mom? How many bucks are we talking about? How much are you going to miss them?

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/10/2014 11:00:19 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		You can do this cheaper by wiring the a hefty pluf into an unused breaker, and having a single extension to the generator (plugs on both sides.

You activate by turning off the mains, turning off all the unnecessary breakers, plugging in the extension and turning on the generator. You undo it by reversing the actions.

If you do this in any other order you risk electrocuting yourself, starting a fire or causing a negligent homicide when the linemen work on the lines. You need a checklist just like pilots have.

This is how it's set up at my father's house, but bear in mind that he's a physicist and all four of his children are engineers - we are very used to dealing with lots of electricity and dangerous equipment. If you aren't comfortable doing this then get the transfer switch.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 8:40:29 AM   
tommonymous


Posts: 404
Joined: 1/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

You can do this cheaper by wiring the a hefty pluf into an unused breaker, and having a single extension to the generator (plugs on both sides.

You activate by turning off the mains, turning off all the unnecessary breakers, plugging in the extension and turning on the generator. You undo it by reversing the actions.

If you do this in any other order you risk electrocuting yourself, starting a fire or causing a negligent homicide when the linemen work on the lines. You need a checklist just like pilots have.

This is how it's set up at my father's house, but bear in mind that he's a physicist and all four of his children are engineers - we are very used to dealing with lots of electricity and dangerous equipment. If you aren't comfortable doing this then get the transfer switch.



This is why, from a landlord's perspective, any kind of hard wiring of a generator would likely be a no-go. I think if someone played around with the wiring in any rental unit I owned, I'd have really serious problems with that.

_____________________________

"Remember kids. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all." --Hillwilliam

And just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will (or ought to) work for everyone.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 12:41:15 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Oh boy, wow. I am most certinaly not a physicist or engineer and I definitely am not ok with the whole negligent homicide thing so I think I'll just avoid all that unpleasantness.

My landlady is great, and I respect her and her property. I would never even consider doing anything without her permission. She once told me I was the BEST tennant she's ever had and I do my best to maintain her high opinion of me.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 2:55:41 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		I would not spend the money if it was not my permanent home.

1) You would need the approval of your Landlord and I would find this unlikely. It provides not benefit for him/her and its additional risk for them if not done right.
2) You need a licensed electrician to install the switch gear
3) You need to pay for the permits and inspections from the local county engineer.
4) It may also need to be inspected by the local power company

I think for the amount of money you would need to spend on it to have it installed, it would not be worth it. A lot cheaper to buy the heavy gauge extension cord and run them. I am guessing the cost of the switchgear to be about $600 and then the labor around $1000. Price will vary one size though

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 3:31:14 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ugh. I think extension cords are sounding like less trouble! I didn't even think about having to get permits and inspections. That sounds like a huge avoidable headache.

My mom has fallen numerous times in recent months (although not over any extension cords), so I try to be diligent about keeping the main areas free of tripping hazards, but I can always tuck the cords away around cabinets and walls.


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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 4:34:02 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		I do think it is a good idea if you own your own home and you already have a generator. I do have one in my house (which ironically I am renting currently LOL). It operates the furnace (gas heat), the refrigerator, some strategic lights and outlets. But it is not cheap to do it and do it correctly.

If running cords keep a roll of duct tape around and duct tape the extension cord to the floor at any trip areas. But with elderly people in the house it would still be a hazard.

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Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/11/2014 5:49:20 PM   
zero4theday


Posts: 3
Joined: 6/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

You can do this cheaper by wiring the a hefty pluf into an unused breaker, and having a single extension to the generator (plugs on both sides.


This is called back feeding and in many states is illegal as it can potentially energize lines that running back from your house. This being a rental you really have no idea if it's wired correctly. While many people do it, you run the risk of killing the guys that are trying to restore your power.

The cheapest solution is to use a master cut-over switch. This will allow you to isolate your panel from the utility service and then you use the breakers to select your circuits. A transfer switch works in much the same way except it's wired directly to preselected circuits and is sized to the generator to prevent you from over loading it. A 100 amp transfer switch will run you around $350 plus installation.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/12/2014 6:38:34 AM   
tommonymous


Posts: 404
Joined: 1/21/2013
Status: offline 		It sounds like the two of you have a pretty great relationship. You're both luck to have it.

ETA: And it couldn't hurt to ask her if she'd be open to you installing a system that you both agree on. Lay out your reasons, the expected cost (to each of you), and the benefit to her property (if any).

< Message edited by tommonymous -- 2/12/2014 6:39:47 AM >

_____________________________

"Remember kids. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all." --Hillwilliam

And just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will (or ought to) work for everyone.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/12/2014 8:06:18 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Unless you have someone in the house that will die if you lose electricity for a half hour, a transfer switch is not really necessary for an emergency generator.

Install a breaker for your generator. I have one attached to a pigtail to attach to my generator.

When the power goes out you:
1> Open main breaker to the grid and all the subsidiary breakers.
2> Attach line to generator and start the generator. Let the generator warm up (per your manufacturers recommendation)
3> Close breaker to the generator so it is energizing your breaker box
4> Close subsidiary breakers one at a time. (you don't want to overload the generator and stall it bringing too much load online at one time)

A transfer switch is for near instantaneous and automatic power transfer. Unless you have a reason why power being off for a while would destroy someone or something, you can do it manually.

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RE: Transfer Switches & Generators (Emergency Prep ques... - 2/12/2014 10:30:13 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		An option that might fit your place is, drill a hole in the wall. Insert plastic pipe with one fitting. Have buddy press the other fitting onto the far side. Now you have a nice neat hole in the wall just where you want it. Slide an extension cord into it, plug it into the generator. probably ought to half-knot it, to prevent pullout. Jam something in there to keep the breeze down.

The idea is, it might let you run your cord away from the walkway.

Stay warm.

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

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