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Owner59 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/12/2014 7:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I wish it were easier for the 'takers' like yourself to emigrate to another country.




`We`re still waiting for a lot of whiny sore loser republicans to move to Canada or Costa Rico....or where ever they said...[:D]




Owner59 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/12/2014 7:32:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I think the United States is one of the worst, if not the very worst developed country in the world. In other developed countries, they have single-payer health care with no deductibles, annual maximums, or co-insurance and it covers nursing homes. In some developed countries, college is funded the same way as K-12th grade and child care is also subsidized by the government. In other developed countries, there's more job security. How wonderful it would be to not have to worry about deductibles, losing everything if someone goes to a nursing home, student loan debt, and child care. How can a country with none of these benefits be better than a country that has them? What kind of FREEDOM is years of student loan debt that ruins debt to income ratio? How is the chance of losing everything over medical bills or nursing home care FREEDOM? I wish every day I'd been born in a better developed country. Unfortunately, legally immigrating to and becoming a citizen of another country isn't possible unless one has a college degree and experience in a specific "skilled profession" the other country is seeking. With all the benefits other countries have that the United States is sorely lacking in, I will never understand American exceptionalism.



Maybe we can export our libertarian Ian Rand wanna-bees to Somalia or Liberia...No taxes, no pesky gov. regulations, no cops,no roads ....






DesideriScuri -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/12/2014 8:08:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I wish it were easier for the 'takers' like yourself to emigrate to another country.

If the belief that taxpayer dollars should be spent on the American people instead of foreign aid, corporate welfare, and weapons the military doesn't need, classifies me as a "taker", damn right I'm a "taker." Working Americans earn the money collected for taxes, therefore the American people are entitled to have the money they earned spent on them, not some foreign country or welfare for greedy corporations.


Or, perhaps, less taken from the taxpayers?

Nah. Can't have that. We have to dole it out in entitlements. [8|]






DesideriScuri -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/12/2014 8:12:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJimmi
Actually we do. It's called liberal alliance but it's still very new and small. I don't hope it will get much bigger. Liberal is also a danish word and I think it means something like libertarian in english.


The original "liberals" in America included our Founding Fathers. Today's "liberals" are our Democrats, and our Founding Fathers would be better described today, as Libertarians. It's one of the things that politicians do, they take a word that sounds great or has stood for something great, and cloaked themselves in it, twisting it's meaning along the way.




tweakabelle -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 3:01:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I think the United States is one of the worst, if not the very worst developed country in the world. In other developed countries, they have single-payer health care with no deductibles, annual maximums, or co-insurance and it covers nursing homes. In some developed countries, college is funded the same way as K-12th grade and child care is also subsidized by the government. In other developed countries, there's more job security. How wonderful it would be to not have to worry about deductibles, losing everything if someone goes to a nursing home, student loan debt, and child care. How can a country with none of these benefits be better than a country that has them? What kind of FREEDOM is years of student loan debt that ruins debt to income ratio? How is the chance of losing everything over medical bills or nursing home care FREEDOM? I wish every day I'd been born in a better developed country. Unfortunately, legally immigrating to and becoming a citizen of another country isn't possible unless one has a college degree and experience in a specific "skilled profession" the other country is seeking. With all the benefits other countries have that the United States is sorely lacking in, I will never understand American exceptionalism.



Maybe we can export our libertarian Ian Rand wanna-bees to Somalia or Liberia...No taxes, no pesky gov. regulations, no cops,no roads ....




Best you ask the Somalis first. And ask them very nicely and politely too.

While your suggestion has obvious merit and appeal from an American perspective, I cant see any one anywhere else feeling enthusiastic about having to take such looneys in. Somalia for instance already has more than its fair share of murderous relgious fundamentalist nuts.........




Zonie63 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:01:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree Zonie...but my comments were addressing the difference in opinion between young and old not necessarily which political party these ages represent. I happen to believe in American exceptionalism and although not a conservative I am more conservative than I was when 21. Even though I served in the Vietnam war and believed in it I was far more liberal then than now. If I had been asked then what I thought of American greatness I would have answered differently than today.

Butch


I'm also probably a bit more conservative than I used to be, although I would suggest that some of these changes are due to society, not so much the individual. For example, someone who supported the Civil Rights Movement or the Anti-War Movement as a teenager would likely still support those same principles in their 60s and 70s (and many of them still do). They may have been anti-establishment in their youth, but since the "establishment" reformed and changed to suit them, they became more pro-establishment as the years wore on.




Zonie63 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:29:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJimmi

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." - JFK

I can pay a high tax rate and in return we all get free education, money to cover our living expenses while studying, free healthcare, money if we are unlucky enough to lose our job and probably less crime because of less inequality, which makes the country safer. To many americans that might sound like a socialist nightmare, but in Denmark where we probably have the highest tax rate in the world the residents are very happy. So happy that we have been called the happiest nation on earth :-)

Is America more exceptional than Denmark or many other countries with high tax rates, a high living standard, universal healthcare and free education? I don't think so.


Actually, compared to the rest of the world, countries with a high living standard (such as America or Denmark) are more the exception rather than the rule.

Exceptionalism is also defined in terms of national power and influence over the world, and for all practical purposes, American Exceptionalism was a propaganda ploy to drum up American support for global interventionist policies. Most Americans were reluctant to enter the world stage and get involved in international politics, but the situations which arose during the World Wars and the Cold War made Americans feel a moral obligation, since "no one else could do it."

That's where the basic idea comes from, since we were the "exception" among the Western liberal democracies. We had the power, resources, and population to stand against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, whereas France, Britain, Denmark, and other nations of Western Europe were still weak - even despite having a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the world. Because of this, Americans were convinced that they had no other choice but to involve ourselves militarily to help protect our Allies and to make the world safe for democracy. The central idea is that no other nation could have taken on the role that America took on, either because they were too weak or ruled by some malignant, undemocratic government.




PeonForHer -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:42:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I read this today in an OP ED.

Fifty percent of Americans over 65 believe America stands above all others as the greatest nation on earth. Only 27 percent of Americans ages 18 to 29 believe that

What are your insights into this disparity?

The above came from piece by David Brooks, which you can read here.


I can't help thinking that this disparity has a lot, perhaps even everything, to do with what the two sides think is the 'right thing to say'. Old people here in the UK are often heard to proclaim that 'Britain is best!' - in the same way that they'll say 'Football Team X is best!'. A bias in favour of your own country is a virtue for them - that's all that really imparts. Younger people, on the other hand, I'd expect not to take such nationalist enthusiasm on board, however.




Zonie63 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:53:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Here are two articles on American Exceptionalism.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/268588/defense-american-exceptionalism-clifford-d-may#!

http:///www.harvardpolitics.com/united-states/understanding-american-exceptionalism

The first article will also refer you to an article regarding a negative view of American Exceptionalism. And of course, if you plug it in, you can find all kinds of articles regarding this topic.

One thing that has not been mentioned on here is that the age group mentioned has also been described as one of the most self-absorbed, egotistic generations produced by this country...spoiled and hovered over by parental units (helicopter parents) and doted on by teachers who taught them that it is o.k. not to be able to spell or to write a sentence correctly, it is the IDEA that counts and how "bad" the U. S. has been not only to its own people but people around the world with little mention of what good the U. S. has done.


Interestingly enough, I think similar things were said about the Baby Boomers - those who were born after the Great Depression and World War II and did not live through those events. Instead, they grew up during a time of unprecedented economic boom and prosperity, when housing was expanding rapidly, unions were at their peak, and American industries were bustling with jobs and opportunities. Compared to the war and economic deprivation faced by their parents, the Baby Boomers enjoyed a relatively comfortable, safe, and luxurious standard of living - which they took full advantage of and had "fun, fun, fun 'til their daddy took the T-Bird away."

They partied hardy during the 1960s, continuing on through the 70s with their disco and cocaine - which would also lead to huge crime waves during the late 70s and throughout the 80s. George Carlin humorously and accurately sums up the Baby Boom generation, the ones who went from Cocaine to Rogaine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Sal6N5OiE

One might say that the Baby Boomers inherited the greatest nation on Earth, considering the situation America was in when they entered this world. But in their time, they've managed to fuck everything up, so the Millennials are stuck picking up the pieces and cleaning up all the mess after the decades-long party we've been having. They're the ones who will have to pay for our endless partying (in more ways than one), so I'd probably cut them a bit of slack. If the youth of today is considered "one of the most self-absorbed, egotistic generations produced by this country," it may be yet another case of the acorn falling close to the tree. Look at who's been raising them, and it's not that difficult to figure out.





asyouwish72 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 10:07:12 AM)

I actually think that the WWII generation came in late in the history of the idea of American exceptionalism. I think the phrase was coined a century earlier by Alexis de Toqueville. Back then, in the early 19th century, we really *were* exceptional. We'd put effective representative government into practice (admittedly, it only represented landed white males) when most of the rest of the western world was still running under monarchies of some kind or another. All of the political ideas of the enlightenment and classic liberalism (which is not exactly the same as modern liberalism) came to full flower here first, the end of a line of political thought that had started way back with the founding of Boston as a 'city on a hill'; a model of an egalitarian society. The 'American experiment' was a radical, destabilizing upheaval of existing political norms. It fired (at least in part) events like the French Revolution (which had noble, enlightened goals before it degenerated into mobs, barbarism, and Napoleon). Ben Franklin had been a rock star over there.

We also had a very egalitarian society in terms of wealth distribution, at least in the North and on the frontier. Land was abundant (since smallpox or plague had fortuitously annihilated the rightful owners- truly 'divine providence' in the worst sense of that term), so there were few truly poor except in the South, which was built much more on the European model: landed gentry and peasant (or in our case, slave) labor. Given how much earlier slavery was abolished in the British Empire, the catastrophe of slavery and Jim Crowe made our "exceptionalism" very much white-only (and more than a bit hypocritical), but for what it was worth, it was there.

The idea continued, even as the rest of the western world largely adopted our political thought, as a consequence of our vast economic strength following the industrial revolution. By the time of Standard Oil, Americans were the people who got things done (even if our egalitarian economic system had collapsed into pockets of endless gilded age wealth atop vast swathes of immigrant poverty). In World War II, we assumed the mantle of world leadership (on the cheap, as it turns out; the Soviets did most of the heavy lifting against Nazi Germany, supplied by American factories) and once again were cast in a position where our political thought was superior to that of our competitors. For all the ideological fervor of the communists, nobody ever much tried to sneak from West Berlin across into East Germany. It was a bleak, spirit-breaking form of government. The west had a more moral system (again, despite the travesty of the Jim Crowe south), and American was the captain of the west. The World War II generation had reason to be confident, even smug, in their belief in our superiority. They'd earned it.

In the present day, though, there's nothing much left to distinguish our political or economic philosophy (which is succinctly described, as best I can tell, as 'winner take all and the rest be damned'). Communism is effectively dead. Western thought, free-market capitalism, and representative democracy won. Those ideas now span the better part of the globe. Western Europe has a much stronger social contract with its citizens now than we do (what's derided as a nanny state here is just what is expected of effective governance over there- in exchange for paying taxes, citizens get good educations, assistance with child care, and access to decent health care). It's a matter of judgement if their system is better (I personally think there's some things each side could learn from the other) or worse than ours, but there is no simple, clear-cut answer. Why would children today (who have better access to efficient communications than any prior generation, and therefore live in a 'smaller' world) see us as exceptional, when our ideas have spread so far that they are now the rule elsewhere as well? I'm sure that notion seems like thoughtless hypocritical posturing to them, as well it should.

I always have and always will believe that our core political ideas have great value, and that America is the intellectual and spiritual parent of most of modern political practice. But when I here retorts about American Exceptionalism in the modern day, I generally cringe. They are normally coming from people who seem to think America has some blanket moral superiority over everyone else, and that we are effectively supposed to 'win just by showing up' in everything we do. The reality is we have a mediocre education system, poor infrastructure, and inefficient tax system, lousy provision of health care (or at least an insane system of financing it, technologically it's quite good), a system of incarceration that looks like a totalitarian state, and a political process that is obscenely dominated by money (which is conveniently concentrated in a small number of hands). In short, we have work to do, and no amount of preening about our own inherent superiority is going to fix any of those problems.




Politesub53 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:01:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJimmi

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." - JFK

I can pay a high tax rate and in return we all get free education, money to cover our living expenses while studying, free healthcare, money if we are unlucky enough to lose our job and probably less crime because of less inequality, which makes the country safer. To many americans that might sound like a socialist nightmare, but in Denmark where we probably have the highest tax rate in the world the residents are very happy. So happy that we have been called the happiest nation on earth :-)

Is America more exceptional than Denmark or many other countries with high tax rates, a high living standard, universal healthcare and free education? I don't think so.


Actually, compared to the rest of the world, countries with a high living standard (such as America or Denmark) are more the exception rather than the rule.

Exceptionalism is also defined in terms of national power and influence over the world, and for all practical purposes, American Exceptionalism was a propaganda ploy to drum up American support for global interventionist policies. Most Americans were reluctant to enter the world stage and get involved in international politics, but the situations which arose during the World Wars and the Cold War made Americans feel a moral obligation, since "no one else could do it."

That's where the basic idea comes from, since we were the "exception" among the Western liberal democracies. We had the power, resources, and population to stand against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, whereas France, Britain, Denmark, and other nations of Western Europe were still weak - even despite having a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the world. Because of this, Americans were convinced that they had no other choice but to involve ourselves militarily to help protect our Allies and to make the world safe for democracy. The central idea is that no other nation could have taken on the role that America took on, either because they were too weak or ruled by some malignant, undemocratic government.


Oh ffs, whats wrong with you people. The UK stood against Germany while America sat on the fence, yes we had help from the US, much of it at a cost. The manpower, blood and sacrifice cant be counted in monetary terms.

Dont even get me started on modern views of American exceptionalism, highest incarceration rates, ultra high murder rates, sky high levels of pollution. [8|]




kdsub -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:53:20 PM)

quote:

sky high levels of pollution


We all have our opinions...but at least get your facts straight...If I were you I'd do a little Googling.

Butch




GoddessManko -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 4:57:16 PM)

Americans are exceptional because their decision making process overall (good and productive citizens) are always with the best of intentions in mind. Mmmmm....nanocrystal synthesis and Berkeley U. :)




Zonie63 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/13/2014 6:14:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Oh ffs, whats wrong with you people. The UK stood against Germany while America sat on the fence, yes we had help from the US, much of it at a cost. The manpower, blood and sacrifice cant be counted in monetary terms.


I never said anything that would contradict this, but the U.S. was still in far better shape after the war, while much of Western Europe was still battered and weakened from the war. Britain was in pretty rough shape, and the war also hastened the demise of your Empire as well. In any case, with Europe in a shambles and Stalin with the largest standing army on the planet, Americans were "persuaded" that we had to take an active role in world affairs, believing that we were the only Western democratic nation with the resources and strength to stand up to the Soviet Union and the threat of Communist expansion. Maybe it was a crock of shit, maybe not, but that's how it was played up to American audiences.

I should point out that when I wrote the post you're responding to, I had just read the National Review article linked above by CreativeDominant, in which I found this:

"But, most of all, exceptionalism implies that the responsibility for global leadership rests on America’s shoulders, not because Americans hunger for power but because there is no good alternative."

That seemed to be the key point about American exceptionalism, and I was thinking about that as I was formulating my earlier response.

I don't think America actually sat on the fence. Perhaps we just subscribed to a different form of "exceptionalism" back then.
Many Americans were thinking "Why should we get involved in that? What's it to us?" For those who might not have considered America to be "exceptional," that would seemingly be the normal point of view anyone would take from a neutral, uninvolved, unexceptional country with a relatively small military (at the time).

But a view common to Americans today is that we made a very tragic mistake in delaying our entry into the war (and you seemed to be echoing that same view with your "on the fence" remark). That's one of the main driving arguments which justifies American interventionism and the "Exceptionalist" view that "we're the only ones who can do it." Isolationism in America was dead after WW2. I can see some merit in that view, as it can be argued that if America had entered the League of Nations and gave that organization its full support, it might have been enough to prevent the aggression of the Fascist powers. It's all hypothetical of course, but it's often used as a persuasive argument to justify a lot of what our government has done since WW2.





Politesub53 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 4:00:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

sky high levels of pollution


We all have our opinions...but at least get your facts straight...If I were you I'd do a little Googling.

Butch



Lmao...... To quote a famous American..... "You cannot be serious"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/science/global-warming/140113/dirty-deeds-the-worlds-biggest-polluters-co2-emissions-country

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTXRKSI#a=1

Tell me when to stop Butch. [8|]





Politesub53 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 4:13:25 AM)

Zonie...... One continually sees comments on here about how Americans saved us, or how appeasement didnt work. My whole point is that while any US help was greatfully received, the first two remarks in this post are inaccurate.

Lets take them one at a time.

Would America have got so involved but for Pearl Harbour, US interests that needed defending. I think not.

If appeasement was so bad, why didnt America do something about it, being you were all so exceptional etc. My view is it was at least worth a try and gave the UK much needed breathing space to build our forces.league of nations, so when the Munich Agreement was signed, the UK were not in a position to do much else.




thishereboi -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 5:27:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I wish it were easier for the 'takers' like yourself to emigrate to another country.




`We`re still waiting for a lot of whiny sore loser republicans to move to Canada or Costa Rico....or where ever they said...[:D]



You didn't actually believe them, did you? Hell, when the whiny sore loser democrats said they were moving if Bush got elected I knew they were talking out of their asses and didn't really mean it. Why would the other side be any different?




cloudboy -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 7:09:49 AM)

quote:

That's where the basic idea comes from, since we were the "exception" among the Western liberal democracies. We had the power, resources, and population to stand against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, whereas France, Britain, Denmark, and other nations of Western Europe were still weak - even despite having a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the world. Because of this, Americans were convinced that they had no other choice but to involve ourselves militarily to help protect our Allies and to make the world safe for democracy. The central idea is that no other nation could have taken on the role that America took on, either because they were too weak or ruled by some malignant, undemocratic government.


I've been impressed with your line or reasoning on this thread. When we contrast the above with:

* two failed wars from whom the veterans have a sky high suicide rate and a disturbing homelessness rate

* the Great Recession of 2008

* dysfunctional government - combined with problems we are not solving - global warming, a broken immigration policy, chaos in the Middle East, and

* an eroding middle class combined with astronomical health care and education costs

One can see the USA as the "problem nation" and not the problem solving nation. At least GWB and Obama were able to address the Great Recession before the advent of the tea party, who would have thrown the USA into the abyss.




mnottertail -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 7:32:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Zonie...... One continually sees comments on here about how Americans saved us, or how appeasement didnt work. My whole point is that while any US help was greatfully received, the first two remarks in this post are inaccurate.

Lets take them one at a time.

Would America have got so involved but for Pearl Harbour, US interests that needed defending. I think not.

If appeasement was so bad, why didnt America do something about it, being you were all so exceptional etc. My view is it was at least worth a try and gave the UK much needed breathing space to build our forces.league of nations, so when the Munich Agreement was signed, the UK were not in a position to do much else.



During both WWI and WWII America had plenty of time to get its act together while the Europeans did the heavy lifting, we didnt involve ourselves in 1 until 3+ years in and 2 until 3+ years in, lend lease aside, which was not that great until we were in the fracas, many American soldiers fought in Europe with British and French Armaments (guns, whatnot).  

We will never have that opportunity again, to build ourselves for 2-3 years while others war, and they suffer the privations and devastations while we remained relatively comfortable, and opulent (nobody here has seen a wad of ration books without pages of stamps still in them) we were not at all put out, really, our national personal spending increasing by some 20% those years. 




Politesub53 -> RE: American Exceptionalism (2/14/2014 4:26:33 PM)

As a baby I had my own ration book and that was in the early fifties. I was one when rationing ended, ironically enough on the 4th of July...... 1954.




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