Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (Full Version)

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ChatteParfaitt -> Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:08:51 AM)

This was touched off by a brief conversation that got pulled for being off topic (quite rightly is was a major thread jack that I participated in, so my apologies to the mods.)

A personal described himself as a white male in his profile, and I responded with this:

BTW: Describing yourself as a white sub male makes you sound racist. Just a heads up.

A person responded by saying they thought I was being far too sensitive, and we had a brief (and friendly) back and forth about the issue.

What do you think? Is describing yourself as white or black or some other ethnicity racist?

How about those who only want a white woman or a black man or whatever?

The black bull has certainly become quite the stereotype in our sub-culture, is that racist?




AlexisANew -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:18:16 AM)

I can see how that would come over but then I have to ask myself, why would I feel my hackles go up if I saw, 'white man here', but not feel it was racist if they said 'black man here'?

Lots of black people write about their colour in their profiles. They often even name themselves in a way that leaves no mistake to what ethnicity they are. I have never thought any of that as at all racist.

My sister only ever dated black men. She eventually married one and has 3 beautiful mixed race kids. I don't see her as racist because she doesn't find white men attractive, I just see it as her personal preference.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:34:16 AM)

The discussion that was pulled dealt with the same question, 'if they said they were black, is that racist?'

I think it is, yes. Or at the least could be taken that way.

As for those wanting only whites or only blacks -- what seems like preference to you seems like something that could be racist to me. I know of a black man who only wants white women and it's b/c (in my opinion) he hates whites. It's his way of sticking it to the white man. This is not a man known for being kind to his s-types, quite the opposite.

I also know interracial couples where there is not even a hint of racism.












Rule -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:36:00 AM)

It is my impression that most USA Americans are racists, most especially when they pretend not to be racist and when they agitate against racism.

However, indeed, in The Netherlands we have one man who is being discriminated against and persecuted by several tens of thousands of people for having a pitch black skin; obviously they all are racists.




SweetAnise -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:41:14 AM)

To the OP: I personally find nothing wrong with someone saying they are White, Black, Latino...it gives me an idea who I am speaking too. Especially when you look at their profile and it says Other. I know some people prefer a certain race and so it sorta gives the person a heads up whether to move on or not. However it would not surprise me if someone would use race as a way to discriminate but that is there prerogative. Now if someone purposely went out of their way to tell someone they are only looking at the profile because they are Black, or White, Or Latino...that can be deemed a little racist. And I have had that happen.




Lynnxz -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:42:49 AM)

What? Declaring your race in a dating profile isn't racist.

How would that even START to be racist?

If saying, "I'm white" is racist, then saying "I'm tall" is shortist, and at that point the offended party should just move to Tumblr, where people make a science out of being offended.




SpaceSpank -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:44:56 AM)

I think your intent on how you describe yourself is the real factor on that... and that can come across in the writing or not.

If I say I'm a tall white man with brown hair... Does that mean I'm prejudiced against short people, non whites, and those with hair color other than brown?

No, it's a description. So long as that's exactly my intent behind such a thing, there's really no more to it than that.

However, if I am saying I only want ___ subs to contact me (white, back, asian, whatever), there is where things get a bit murky.

It could be a preference sure... but why is a preference? Is it because you honestly do just see people of a particular race as more appealing to you?
Or is it because you're lusting after, or against, a particular stereotype?

Almost every profile I see of a sub looking for a black Dom is looking for a "BBC". The stereo type of the exceedingly hung and aggressive black man. That is certainly racist. Just as racist are those looking for only asian subs, because they have the image of a petite and demure oriental woman who is reserved and respectful.

Many of the blatantly racist profiles are pretty easy to identify, no matter which way they go. But others are not so clear.




pgashlie -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:45:06 AM)

"Black" is certainly better than CM's "African American"... I'm black and Scots, living and working in the US... Which makes me neither ..but its the only available option.
Anyone listening? :)

I don't, however, go in for obsessive emphasis on ethnicity... Some of the "I'm a big (...) bull and I wanna fuck and degrade all you (...) bitches" profiles are just sad.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:47:47 AM)

To be honest, if somebody would ask me, I wouldn't really know how to describe myself, somewhat off white possibly....

We get that a lot here for medical forms and all sorts of statistics and I'm always a bit clueless as what to fill in...

As far as I remember you get

- White (British/Irish/Any Other)
- Asian
- Black
- Mixed (White/Black, White/Asian)
- Any Other

Apparently that should help them with their statistics as certain ethnic groups are more or less prone to certain problems, great, but with the limited choices... I usually take White and Any Other, gets it closest (Italian/Swedish with French, Spanish, German sprinkled in), but with Asian, I just shake my head because in the UK you have Chinese and Indian and Pakistani Asians too and lumping them all into Asian seems a very broad brush, same with Black - Caribbean or African?

To be honest, I really really don't know what the current PC term is, but Caucasian doesn't seem to fit, because both Blumenbach and Meiner's definition seems a bit weird...




theshytype -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 5:56:49 AM)

If he's just stating he's a white male, I don't view it as being racist. I believe there's a time when it might be necessary for the author or reader.
Although not all people are interested in race as a factor in a parter, some are. And it's not any different to me than finding someone within the same religion. Often, people choose mirror images of themselves for partners (including religion, political affiliation, morals, social class) and I see nothing wrong with including skin color in that mix.
If there is a picture up of himself, I don't see it as being necessary, but still do not view it as racist.

Had he jumped into a discussion stating "white male here", as if the 'white' places more importance on his thought when it has no place, then I'd see it as racist.

I've dated men with different skin colors, religions and nationalities. I happened to end up with my mirror image. I can't say someone looking for that is any more racist than I am.

I'm going to use feminism as an example. It's a good idea.  It was a necessary idea. Equal rights for women, a woman's right to choose her own path.  Unfortunately, some became lost in the path and became extremists, forgetting that some woman may want to choose the path of housewife and stay-at-home mother.  Those extremists are pushing their ideals of a woman onto all women.  They're no better than the ideas they were fighting against.  

When people become overly sensitive, they may start to lose their audience like feminists have lost me.  While I agree racism still exists, it's evident, I also believe that the over-sensitivities cause the real issues to lose their importance.  The important issues are over-shadowed by all of the unnecessary issues.  




AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:00:40 AM)

fr

It doesn't seem racist to me, at least not without some other context which implies that white is the best race. I also don't think it's racist to have a preference for your partner's race, since there's no equal opportunities in sexual attraction. Obviously there are exceptions, when it becomes apparent that a person is fetishising a certain race (sadly I see this a lot with men looking for Asian girls) or dismissing other races because they think they are inferior. Which would put me off a person, even if I was their preferred race, but I still believe they can have whatever criteria for dating they see fit.

When I worked on the 999 emergency line, I had to take descriptions of people every day. Of course one of the first questions you ask is about skin colour. A surprising number of people don't know what 'ethnicity' means and 'race' would often result in 'He's English' which is entirely unhelpful since you can be English and also black, Asian etc, so you end up doing an awkward dance of 'what colour skin do they have?' or even 'are they white?' It's not racist to acknowledge someone's race and/or skin colour when it's relevant, and arguably when considering a date people want to know what you look like, so it's relevant.




MsDangerousCrves -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:10:14 AM)

I'm going to have to agree with a few other posters, it's the intent behind the words. If he's done this "I'm a white male from the Midwest interested in a ......" I can't possibly see how that's racist. Remember not everyone is computer/technologically savvy. A lot of folks still operate under the ASL mode (for newbies that's age, sex, location).

One of the posters said this "where people make a science out of being offended"

If you're using something to describe yourself, how can that possibly be racist? I'm a fat white chick. It's my body, it's my skin, and it's my sex. I can do as I please with it, describe it any way I want.





FieryOpal -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:16:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

What? Declaring your race in a dating profile isn't racist.

How would that even START to be racist?

If saying, "I'm white" is racist, then saying "I'm tall" is shortist, and at that point the offended party should just move to Tumblr, where people make a science out of being offended.

Or that if you're seeking a tall man, this makes you someone who discriminates against the vertically challenged... [8|]

Or that listing an age range makes you an ageist... [8|]
If you're a much older person who has a very narrow range that is 20-30 years younger than your own age, then that just makes you an unrealistic fool.

I had a brother-in-law who would only go for natural blondes, ordinarily a subset of having Caucasian genes. (He was also blond himself.) You could say he had a blonde fetish. Many (non-Asian) men have an Asian fetish. It has to do with sexual preference, as long as the person doesn't discriminate against other races or ethnicities otherwise in mundane areas of life.

ChatteParfaitt, I saw the thread you're speaking of, and I immediately found it redundant of that OP to stress his "whiteness" since he'd already listed himself as Caucasian. Now if he'd had any sense, he could have chosen to be more specific on his ethnicity, such as being part Irish & Italian or part Jewish. There are people who feel they have more in common culturally or in terms of upbringing, shared tradition and value systems. Does that make them a nationalist?




needlesandpins -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:17:00 AM)

i don't see it as racist at all. it's like saying that i can't say that I'm Greek in my profile, or Olive skinned. it's just stating the obvious about me like height, eye colour, size, or whatever. some people don't want to date certain people. i wouldn't want to start speaking to a guy that i really liked to then find out later that he's 5', a slave, and black. non are my preference, and if he doesn't have a photo, or state them in his profile i have to ask. i really don't want to have to, so much better that it's listed if i can't see it for myself.

needles




MadameMarque -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:18:20 AM)

I agree with these remarks of AlexisANew.

Of course, there's no need to announce your own race in the CM personals, because they have a category that you can select, and one can search by race, there. Is it racist to offer that category?

A person might have a preference for a certain race or races for different reasons. If it's for physical traits, you might accuse us of being superficial or fetishizing people. In any case, it might be called racist, if it's a racial preference.

It should be acknowledged that there really are general cultural differences, if a person's upbringing was influenced by a culture different than your own. But of course, you still can't assume much on that basis. For one thing, you can't assume a person *was* brought up with different cultural influences, by race alone. And if they were, it's still all generalities. If someone was brought up with the traditions and values of another culture, though, it would be unwise to turn an blind eye to that, because that's part of them, too, and it is real.

At a certain time in my life, I realized I was more attracted to Asian men. That's it. I tend to believe that it's because my intuition tells me that there's someone or someones important to me, to whom that attraction is guiding me. But the fact remains.

As AlexisANew points out, not all acknowledgement of race is viewed equally. If an Asian man mentioned that he especially loves Asian women, I doubt anyone would anxiously jump in to say that he's racist.

It may be fetishizing or eroticizing of the different, exoticism, when you're talking about initial attraction. People of a different color hair, eyes, or skin, older, younger, taller, shorter, people with a different accent, of a different culture, - it doesn't have to be just race. Or conversely, it could be attraction to the familiar.

I think that the question is, once you find someone with whom you find chemistry, whom you find attractive sexually, are you still aware that they're an individual and remember that you have to get to know them, in order to know them? Hopefully, you don't view them as some exotic sampler or as a mere fetish delivery system. That's something many of us run into just because we're kinky, all other features aside. Of course, that can also get you a lot of game, if you don't mind that.

I don't mind being someone's type, initially, because what is initial attraction, anyway? I would maintain that it includes a dose of personal chemistry that isn't strictly physical.

For those who enjoy casual encounters, it needn't go any farther than that. But I am not one of those whose particularly casual.

For myself, I want people who have the understanding to assume that I'm more than the sum of my parts, as are they.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexisANew

I can see how that would come over but then I have to ask myself, why would I feel my hackles go up if I saw, 'white man here', but not feel it was racist if they said 'black man here'?

Lots of black people write about their colour in their profiles. They often even name themselves in a way that leaves no mistake to what ethnicity they are. I have never thought any of that as at all racist.

My sister only ever dated black men. She eventually married one and has 3 beautiful mixed race kids. I don't see her as racist because she doesn't find white men attractive, I just see it as her personal preference.





tommonymous -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:19:21 AM)

Looks like it's been said a bunch of times (and I've said it before somewhere around here) but I'm of the "Stating facts about myself or others, while attributing nothing especially positive or negative (and unrelated) to them, is not racist." Obviously, if the statement is along the lines of "I'm _____, which makes me inherently superior to others that do not share this trait." (or vice versa) we're somewhere along the lines of prejudice or (depending on the adjectives used) racism.

I think that attraction to only one race (whether one's own or another) is at least narrow-minded, but may easily become racist. Of course, no one bats an eye when someone states that they're only attracted to women or only attracted to men. Perhaps the attraction to a single race is a variation on the same impulse?

(I just thought this post could use another parenthetical... et viola!)

ETA: I'm at least partly in agreement with Athena re: equal opportunities in sexual attraction.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:19:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is my impression that most USA Americans are racists, most especially when they pretend not to be racist and when they agitate against racism.

However, indeed, in The Netherlands we have one man who is being discriminated against and persecuted by several tens of thousands of people for having a pitch black skin; obviously they all are racists.


I've been involved in some very thought provoking seminars when I worked at the university. All faculty and higher level admin staff attended several 3-day seminars on racism and discrimination against women. It was *very* eye opening.

We learned that pretty much everyone is racist or sexist in some ways, it's that endemic in our society (at least here in the US).

So I agree, there is much hidden racism here. However, for the purposes of this thread, I am interested in getting input as to how saying your white appears.

In the instance that began this discussion, the person had a pic and he is clearly white, he'd checked off Caucasian from the ethnicity box, then he stated in his profile that he was white. It seemed a bit of overkill to me, but I admit I could have been being overly sensitive.

Which is why I began this thread, to get other's ideas on the subject.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:25:52 AM)

I agree with your post, there are many delicate nuances involved and most regard intent. Unless you get to know the person, you really have no way of knowing what their intentions are concerning stating their race.





AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:29:15 AM)

Perhaps his ethnicity is important to him. I wouldn't think anything of it if, for example, a black person was proud of and celebrated their heritage. In general, people tend to be less comfortable when people are proud of being white (myself included) because I think it reminds us of events and attitudes throughout history where the white man believed himself to be a superior race and that other races were like children or animals. On the other hand, if I had grown up in another area or country where I was an ethnic minority, it might seem natural for me to feel that being white is a big part of my identity.

Maybe I am reaching here - didn't see the profile in question so perhaps I'm missing some important subtext - but I do think it's possible to see your ethnicity as a central part of who you are without believing it makes you superior to others.

P.S. Before someone points it out, I know that many people still hold those racist attitudes but they aren't accepted as truth in the same way they were say 150 years ago. Most people now know better, even if they still hold some prejudices personally.




Greta75 -> RE: Do descriptors such as white (or black), make a person sound racist to you? (2/28/2014 6:45:14 AM)

I don't think it's racist.
I always introduce myself as a chinese sub. People have race preferences. I have race preferences.
I am not attracted to certain cultures, and I certainly will never EVER have an Arab dom for example, as I am anti-Islam. And no Arab will convince me his not Muslim, I will think his lying. Just because I know it's not his choice whether his Muslim or not. I rather be safe than sorry to be associated with someone with a woman beating religion. Anyway, I love being beaten in BDSM, but that's for fun and pleasure. That's why I got issues with anybody subscribing to a religion who will beat a woman for punishment.

So race is important.




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