Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation)

Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 9:09:57 PM)
The Ukraine situation seems to be heating up, with serious questions about possible responses from the west. Since the apparently officially sanctioned thread's OP is nothing but a partisan snark that poisons discussion, and the counter thread led with partisan snark as well has been locked, I propose that we move the conversation here, and do it without further intervention from the mods, as there may be some need to call people on their shit. I believe that the US is no position to do anything about any Russian intervention morally or practically, and will likely expand into other aspects of that as the thread rolls, but will simply ask questions that offer a level field to begin with. Given the location and historical connection of Crimea and The Ukraine to Russia, does this need to a matter of real concern to the western nations? Should any such determination be based on the national interest of the western nations, or the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) approach to foreign policy?

blacksword404 -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 9:37:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The Ukraine situation seems to be heating up, with serious questions about possible responses from the west. Since the apparently officially sanctioned thread's OP is nothing but a partisan snark that poisons discussion, and the counter thread led with partisan snark as well has been locked, I propose that we move the conversation here, and do it without further intervention from the mods, as there may be some need to call people on their shit. I believe that the US is no position to do anything about any Russian intervention morally or practically, and will likely expand into other aspects of that as the thread rolls, but will simply ask questions that offer a level field to begin with. Given the location and historical connection of Crimea and The Ukraine to Russia, does this need to a matter of real concern to the western nations? Should any such determination be based on the national interest of the western nations, or the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) approach to foreign policy? Putin will do whatever he has to do to keep access to those ports. I think that Russia will takeover parts of Ukraine and hold them until a deal is struck to give him either Crimea itself or access to hose ports. We don't want to risk a war with Russia. So we have already lost negotiations before we even start. Germany and the EU might have something to say. But it won't be much since Russia has already cut off natural gas before as punishment to Europe. Russia means what it says and will do what it takes to get what it wants. They aren't afraid to get a little bloody to do it.

BamaD -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 9:52:58 PM)
FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them.

TheHeretic -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 9:55:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. There is no hope of keeping it out of the body, Bama. [:D]

DomKen -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 9:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. nonsense. A planned downsizing at least a year in the future caused Putin to invade one of his neighbors now? You do realize we still do have all those troops in uniform? EDIT: and precisely how is this an unmoderated thread? Don't the mods start all of those? is this an attempt to get people to speak their minds and then get them in trouble with the mods?

BamaD -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:01:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. nonsense. A planned downsizing at least a year in the future caused Putin to invade one of his neighbors now? You do realize we still do have all those troops in uniform? I said it served as a non deterrent. Hagel is planning for an isolationist military incapable of projecting power. If you had actually read what I said you would see that once again you have misinterpreted my words.

DomKen -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:04:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. nonsense. A planned downsizing at least a year in the future caused Putin to invade one of his neighbors now? You do realize we still do have all those troops in uniform? I said it served as a non deterrent. Hagel is planning for an isolationist military incapable of projecting power. If you had actually read what I said you would see that once again you have misinterpreted my words. Hagel made no such statement. What Hagel actually said was we were not going to plan on fighting 2 regional conflicts at the same time with active duty troops alone any more.

TheHeretic -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. I don't think it would make a damn bit of difference if Hagel had announced we were reinstating the draft and running the army up to 1.2 million, producing a 21st Century update to the A-10, and dusting off Reagan's 600 ship navy idea. This is happening on Moscow's turf, and they are going to do what they are going to do. Given the current state of relations between the US and Russia, not aided by the relationship between our respective heads of state, I think the US needs to limit ourselves to some diplomatic tongue clucking, if that. Any sort of attempted tough talk from our President is only likely to be counterproductive.

TheHeretic -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen EDIT: and precisely how is this an unmoderated thread? Don't the mods start all of those? is this an attempt to get people to speak their minds and then get them in trouble with the mods? By experiment. Gamma actually started a thread about what the next unmoderated thread should be, so I have run one up the flagpole, and we shall see if it waves in the breeze.

BamaD -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:35:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. nonsense. A planned downsizing at least a year in the future caused Putin to invade one of his neighbors now? You do realize we still do have all those troops in uniform? I said it served as a non deterrent. Hagel is planning for an isolationist military incapable of projecting power. If you had actually read what I said you would see that once again you have misinterpreted my words. Hagel made no such statement. What Hagel actually said was we were not going to plan on fighting 2 regional conflicts at the same time with active duty troops alone any more. He wants to reduce our troop strength to what it was before Pearl Harbor. Not being able to fight in two theaters at one time mean you can't fight in one for fear something bigger will come up someplace else.

BamaD -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 10:37:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. I don't think it would make a damn bit of difference if Hagel had announced we were reinstating the draft and running the army up to 1.2 million, producing a 21st Century update to the A-10, and dusting off Reagan's 600 ship navy idea. This is happening on Moscow's turf, and they are going to do what they are going to do. Given the current state of relations between the US and Russia, not aided by the relationship between our respective heads of state, I think the US needs to limit ourselves to some diplomatic tongue clucking, if that. Any sort of attempted tough talk from our President is only likely to be counterproductive. It is possible that you were right, I was just pointing out that we had taken ourselves out of the picture.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 11:21:55 PM)
I have been saying - for at least 11 years - that I am sick and tired of being looked to as being the world's policemen. I am a proud isolationist. I make no apology. Unless something happens on our soil or it *truly* affects our national interests (Note: not necessarily the interests of large corporations; but of the continuation of our republic), I wish we could sit down, shut the fuck up and keep our mitts in our pockets. I understand that there is suffering in the world and that's a shame. I understand that there are times when there are people that need the world to notice and help but Putin is no Hitler. I compare the Ukraine situation to Louisiana, wanting to secede from the U.S. Whether you come down for or against such a thing, would you want Russia deciding that out-come? I quoted Jefferson in another thread. How about if I make it even simpler. How about we start employing the Golden Rule?

joether -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 11:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR hope this is considered neither partisan nor snarky, it is not intended to be. I am pointing out something that I mentioned in another thread. Hagel had no more than finished announcing that we were going to slash the army till the Russians moved. Admittedly Sochi had something to do with the timing but our announced intention of moving back to a pre Pearl Harbor sized military did nothing to dissuade them. nonsense. A planned downsizing at least a year in the future caused Putin to invade one of his neighbors now? You do realize we still do have all those troops in uniform? I said it served as a non deterrent. Hagel is planning for an isolationist military incapable of projecting power. If you had actually read what I said you would see that once again you have misinterpreted my words. Hagel made no such statement. What Hagel actually said was we were not going to plan on fighting 2 regional conflicts at the same time with active duty troops alone any more. He wants to reduce our troop strength to what it was before Pearl Harbor. Not being able to fight in two theaters at one time mean you can't fight in one for fear something bigger will come up someplace else. Maybe you should get a clue before blabbling useless bullshit. This is not FOX News or the Drudge Report; fear is not something that will push people to obedience. The reduction in military was known three years ago. If your just becoming aware of that, it says something of your awareness of American politics. An if you want someone to blame, go blame the Republican/Tea Party. They are the ones that failed the super committee three years ago, and the penalty was the reduction of the 'sacred cows' both sides had if an agreement could not be reached. And for three years, Republican/Tea Party have been trying anything and everything to get out of the deal. In other words, their 'word of honor' is worth less than the paper they write their promises on. Conservatives wanted to lower budget spending and not raise taxes. Well, this is a prime example of what those cuts really mean for this nation. They'll have to start deciding what is truly more important to them: A ) The nation's well being or B ) a few hundred bucks. No one likes paying taxes, not even liberals, BamaD!

eulero83 -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (2/28/2014 11:54:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Given the location and historical connection of Crimea and The Ukraine to Russia, does this need to a matter of real concern to the western nations? well... it's not in russia or the US where most of the refugees will seek protection if a civil war starts so the western nations in europe have a real concern about the situation. By the way, one of the reasons this shit happened is also who ukraine should seek as a major economical partner, russia or the UE. But I think the role of western countries is to stop a possible civil war not to plump one.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 12:11:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 well... it's not in russia or the US where most of the refugees will seek protection if a civil war starts so the western nations in europe have a real concern about the situation. By the way, one of the reasons this shit happened is also who ukraine should seek as a major economical partner, russia or the UE. But I think the role of western countries is to stop a possible civil war not to plump one. = "Dear God! Please don't let the refugees wind up here! Let the US worry about it!"

TheHeretic -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 12:28:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I have been saying - for at least 11 years - that I am sick and tired of being looked to as being the world's policemen. I am a proud isolationist. I make no apology. Unless something happens on our soil or it *truly* affects our national interests (Note: not necessarily the interests of large corporations; but of the continuation of our republic), I wish we could sit down, shut the fuck up and keep our mitts in our pockets. A good sentiment, well expressed. Thank you. We could, I suppose, just leave the whole thing on Canada's doorstep, and let them take the lead on something. After all, Russia is more their neighbor than ours.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 1:02:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic A good sentiment, well expressed. Thank you. We could, I suppose, just leave the whole thing on Canada's doorstep, and let them take the lead on something. After all, Russia is more their neighbor than ours. Ya know what? Now that you say that, it occurs to me that there is *something* we should do, if Canadia decides to become involved. We should fortify Alaska. I'm an isolationist; not insane. Alaska would be the only buffer between Canadia and Russia and I think we shouldn't tolerate any incursion of our soil for the purpose of violence, absent casus belli.

tweakabelle -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 1:24:40 AM)
It's nice to see that, for once, no one is crazy enough to propose a military reponse to Russian machinations in the Ukraine. It seems to me that the real disagreement is between different sections of the Ukrainian population. In the East, ethnic Russians are feeling threatened by moves by ethnic Ukranians and Tartars, who comprise the majority of the population, to align the Ukraine with the EU. Putin is using these fears to try to keep Ukraine firmly within the Russian sphere of influence. The reported presence of Russian troops in the Crimea is an indication of the lengths Putin will go to in order to secure his policy goals. A similar crisis occurred when Georgia tried to join NATO a few years ago. That quickly escalated into military conflict and the secession of some Russian speaking provinces from Georgia. With little hope of any meaningful support from the West, perhaps the best the Ukranians can hope for is a similar outcome, with perhaps the return of Crimea to Russia as the price they will have to pay for their ongoing political independence from Moscow. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that a resolution can be achieved with the minimum of bloodshed. I'm not terribly optimistic.

MrRodgers -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 3:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I have been saying - for at least 11 years - that I am sick and tired of being looked to as being the world's policemen. I am a proud isolationist. I make no apology. Unless something happens on our soil or it *truly* affects our national interests (Note: not necessarily the interests of large corporations; but of the continuation of our republic), I wish we could sit down, shut the fuck up and keep our mitts in our pockets. I understand that there is suffering in the world and that's a shame. I understand that there are times when there are people that need the world to notice and help but Putin is no Hitler. I compare the Ukraine situation to Louisiana, wanting to secede from the U.S. Whether you come down for or against such a thing, would you want Russia deciding that out-come? I quoted Jefferson in another thread. How about if I make it even simpler. How about we start employing the Golden Rule? Yours is neither a new or uniquely American sentiment. However, prior to WWI and WWII this country did not want to get involved. The powers behind the throne as it were...wanted war and profits. The rest is as they say...history. All one needs to do is read Maj. Gen Smedley Butler's book 'War is a Racket' to understand what's at work here. Does this mean US invasion ? No. But look how easily we did go to 2 wars that a real majority was against and here we are 10-12 years and about $1.5 trillion in hard costs alone...later. Things haven't changed. Look at how some politicians argued for more in Libya, Egypt and may soon should the Russians get busy, argue for more in the Ukraine. Need I say more ?

Kirata -> RE: Unmoderated Ukraine thread (sans partisan snark as the foundation) (3/1/2014 7:51:25 AM)
~ FR ~ For anyone willing to do the reading instead of listening to talking heads, the Stasiuk Program for the Study of Contemporary Ukraine has a highly informative blog dedicated to the analysis of current events in Ukraine. http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/ K.

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