Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 6:47:55 PM)

The Republican Controlled state of NC suffered the 3rd worst coal-ash spill in US history. The story in the NYT indicates a Republican mandate to gut Environment Protections in the state under a Chinese Style mandate to spur economic growth.

The description of what happened is scary -- everything you fear from and about Republicans in graphic detail, and it is a chilling followup to what happened in WV and its toxic spillage disaster.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/01/us/coal-ash-spill-reveals-transformation-of-north-carolina-agency.html?src=me&_r=0




RottenJohnny -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 7:24:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The description of what happened is scary -- everything you fear from and about Republicans in graphic detail, and it is a chilling followup to what happened in WV and its toxic spillage disaster.

Because it's always the fault of the Republicans and never the business owner, right? [8|]




cloudboy -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 7:28:06 PM)


That is an ignorant and uninformed response to subject raised. You probably don't even understand what Chinese Style Economic Growth means.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 7:56:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
That is an ignorant and uninformed response to subject raised. You probably don't even understand what Chinese Style Economic Growth means.

Considering the term "Chinese Style Economic Growth" was never in the NYT story, I can only expect it's a construct of your own imagination in this context. Ergo, assuming it means anything is pointless. Since my occupation occasionally deals directly with the environmental and safety needs of large manufacturing companies, I can tell you that no matter what any regulations allow, the company is the one who is ultimately responsible for environmental and safety issues. If they choose not to consider potential dangers relating to such situations simply because they can, that's their fault. Not the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, or otherwise.




jlf1961 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 8:17:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


That is an ignorant and uninformed response to subject raised. You probably don't even understand what Chinese Style Economic Growth means.



Okay state inspectors failed to enforce a Federal law, on the orders of a GOP governor and state assembly?

Am I right so far?

Now I assume that Duke energy knew of the Federal regulation, and chose to ignore it, in lieu of of lack of inspections by state regulators as ordered by a Republican state assembly and governor?

Correct?

Now since these facilities are also inspected by Federal environmental inspectors, who unless otherwise prompted by bribes, orders from supervisors who took bribes or executive branch officials who favored lowering environmental standards, Duke Energy would have not been fined by the Federal Environmental Protection Agency for failing a Federal Inspection?

True? Because state laws supersede Federal law under the constitutional supremacy clause, correct?

Thus this entire accident is the fault of republican state inspectors and not Duke Energy because the state guys built the retaining dam holding back the coal ash and it was flawed?

Uh, ever think that retaining barrier was built before the GOP took control of the state? I mean, don't you build these ponds before you need them?

As I see it, the GOP in power in the state assembly and the governor are at fault for not enforcing Federal Law, Duke is at fault for not building the damn pond correctly in accordance to Federal law that has been around for decades, and you are way out of line by saying it is strictly the GOP's fault.

State Investigators don't do the job of the Federal boys, they do the state job. the Federals come in and inspect the facilities regardless if the state has checked it or not because it is their fucking job.

Thus I am quite sure the flaw was missed by state and federal inspectors who are not under GOP control.

I agree that the GOP is for the most part pro industry and the hell with the environment, however the EPA was formed by a Republican President after a couple of rivers spontaneously ignited in the sixties and early seventies. Nixon was the first president to even acknowledge the possibility of global warming, not to mention Saint Ronald was pro environment, actually balancing the needs of the environment with the needs of industry.

It is in recent years that the GOP has gone to the opposite extreme, and I honestly cant say their stand is really sincere. There are a bunch of GOP senators and congressmen and women from farm country. Farmers are pro environment simply because if the environment fails, they go belly up. Farmers who are GOP members actually support the theory of climate change.

There are GOP representatives in both houses of congress from logging country. Now loggers have long since left behind the old practice of clear cutting, for the most part. There are still operators that practice the method.

However, regulations that benefit sustainable logging benefit these new age logging operations. I doubt a GOP politician is going to vote against something that will add his constituents.

Hell Every member of congress from Texas is a republican. Texas is the biggest producer of wind power in the US. Green friendly energy technology benefits these workers who build and maintain the wind farms. Renewable energy subsidies make wind energy profitable. Do you really thing the GOP politicians from this part of the country are going to toe the party line when it deals with their constituents livelihoods?

So to group all GOP members into as a bunch of environment hating assholes that want to drive the planet to the point nothing can live on it is a bit of a reach.




DomKen -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 8:25:18 PM)

FR
The Clean Water Act is enforced by the states not the feds.

The Governor of North Carolina is a former 20+ year employee of Duke Energy the owner of the coal ash pit.

The NC department in charge of such preempted several private lawsuits seeking to force Duke to clean up that pit, and the numerous other leaking pits across the state, and then settled the lawsuits for effectively nothing.




jlf1961 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 8:33:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
The Clean Water Act is enforced by the states not the feds.

The Governor of North Carolina is a former 20+ year employee of Duke Energy the owner of the coal ash pit.

The NC department in charge of such preempted several private lawsuits seeking to force Duke to clean up that pit, and the numerous other leaking pits across the state, and then settled the lawsuits for effectively nothing.



Mind telling me why the EPA can levy fines if these regulations are not followed? Even aiding in lawsuits against state agencies that fail to enforce the laws?

And the fact the Federal agency is now investigating the state agency, governor's office and Duke Energy?

The state may enforce, but the EPA still is the oversight investigators.

Just saying, it is kinda stupid to keep cutting costs when there are clearly leaks knowing that sooner or later the feds are gonna be involved, unless of course you figure you can eat the fines and penalties and still show a profit.

Once a failure occurs, the EPA is gonna be in the middle of the investigation, and in this case, I am sure the Federal Justice Department don't get involved soon as well.




DomKen -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 8:52:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
The Clean Water Act is enforced by the states not the feds.

The Governor of North Carolina is a former 20+ year employee of Duke Energy the owner of the coal ash pit.

The NC department in charge of such preempted several private lawsuits seeking to force Duke to clean up that pit, and the numerous other leaking pits across the state, and then settled the lawsuits for effectively nothing.



Mind telling me why the EPA can levy fines if these regulations are not followed? Even aiding in lawsuits against state agencies that fail to enforce the laws?

And the fact the Federal agency is now investigating the state agency, governor's office and Duke Energy?

The state may enforce, but the EPA still is the oversight investigators.

Just saying, it is kinda stupid to keep cutting costs when there are clearly leaks knowing that sooner or later the feds are gonna be involved, unless of course you figure you can eat the fines and penalties and still show a profit.

Once a failure occurs, the EPA is gonna be in the middle of the investigation, and in this case, I am sure the Federal Justice Department don't get involved soon as well.

That's the way the law is written.

The state is supposed to enforce the law not the federal EPA. The EPA and DOJ only got involved when the spill occurred and the corruption became apparent.




jlf1961 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 9:07:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
The Clean Water Act is enforced by the states not the feds.

The Governor of North Carolina is a former 20+ year employee of Duke Energy the owner of the coal ash pit.

The NC department in charge of such preempted several private lawsuits seeking to force Duke to clean up that pit, and the numerous other leaking pits across the state, and then settled the lawsuits for effectively nothing.



Mind telling me why the EPA can levy fines if these regulations are not followed? Even aiding in lawsuits against state agencies that fail to enforce the laws?

And the fact the Federal agency is now investigating the state agency, governor's office and Duke Energy?

The state may enforce, but the EPA still is the oversight investigators.

Just saying, it is kinda stupid to keep cutting costs when there are clearly leaks knowing that sooner or later the feds are gonna be involved, unless of course you figure you can eat the fines and penalties and still show a profit.

Once a failure occurs, the EPA is gonna be in the middle of the investigation, and in this case, I am sure the Federal Justice Department don't get involved soon as well.

That's the way the law is written.

The state is supposed to enforce the law not the federal EPA. The EPA and DOJ only got involved when the spill occurred and the corruption became apparent.



Which kinda falls back on Duke power for running the risk of federal fines against the bottom line, doesn't it?

What surprises me the GOP sings the praises of Saint Ronald as the epitome of Conservative values, when the truth is that he was more liberal than conservative when compared to the current crop of GOP politicians.

I mean he supported the environment movement, was the golden boy of many California based environmental groups. Yes he believed in smaller government, while pushing to expand the EPA, mostly against democrats who did not want to spend the extra money.

Reagan did cut taxes, and he raised taxes by ending deductions, not by raising tax rates. Reagan pressed for arms reductions with the Russians, a move opposed by the modern GOP.

Hell, with the things that Reagan stood for, he would not have gotten the nomination today.




BamaD -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 9:30:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
The Clean Water Act is enforced by the states not the feds.

The Governor of North Carolina is a former 20+ year employee of Duke Energy the owner of the coal ash pit.

The NC department in charge of such preempted several private lawsuits seeking to force Duke to clean up that pit, and the numerous other leaking pits across the state, and then settled the lawsuits for effectively nothing.



Mind telling me why the EPA can levy fines if these regulations are not followed? Even aiding in lawsuits against state agencies that fail to enforce the laws?

And the fact the Federal agency is now investigating the state agency, governor's office and Duke Energy?

The state may enforce, but the EPA still is the oversight investigators.

Just saying, it is kinda stupid to keep cutting costs when there are clearly leaks knowing that sooner or later the feds are gonna be involved, unless of course you figure you can eat the fines and penalties and still show a profit.

Once a failure occurs, the EPA is gonna be in the middle of the investigation, and in this case, I am sure the Federal Justice Department don't get involved soon as well.

Sounds like it is everyone's fault.
Also sounds like the problem with the Governor is that he is a former Duke Energy employee and they were ignoring
Federal law when he worked there. If he exposed it he went down with them.
The feds need to keep track of their own regs, not the states.
And of course the main villain is Duke energy, they decided to ignore Federal regulations, it is not like the state
made them do it.
Bottom line, I agree with you.




cloudboy -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 10:06:59 PM)

Not sure why you seemed determined **not go get it.**

The State Agency in charge of environmental enforcement was gutted by the NC leadership (Activist, unopposed Republicans) and employees who tried to enforce protections were committing fireable offenses.

Glad to know you're OK with that and don't want to assign any responsibility or blame for it.

Weak regulatory enforcement played a key role in our economic meltdown and in Deepwater Horizon's massive leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

Its not a good idea to have polluting industries enabled by politicians.




jlf1961 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/1/2014 10:34:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Not sure why you seemed determined **not go get it.**

The State Agency in charge of environmental enforcement was gutted by the NC leadership (Activist, unopposed Republicans) and employees who tried to enforce protections were committing fireable offenses.

Glad to know you're OK with that and don't want to assign any responsibility or blame for it.

Weak regulatory enforcement played a key role in our economic meltdown and in Deepwater Horizon's massive leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

Its not a good idea to have polluting industries enabled by politicians.



Where did I say they were blameless?

I never denied their fault in this, I just pointed out that the poor construction of those ponds was going on long before the GOP took over, or doesn't that matter at all?

I also never said I was okay with any part of the state's actions in the matter prior to the disaster.

Now, I am going to ask you again.

If the practice was to build poorly designed retention pools before the GOP grabbed the state house and governorship, just what party was in charge?

If this practice had been going on for years, why did no one in previous administrations catch it?

Lets leave this one for a second, I want to bring up another environmental disaster in North Carolina.

Back in the 80's and 90's people down river from the champion paper mill in Canton NC, a small town outside of Asheville filled a number of lawsuits concerning water quality of the Pigeon river. For one thing, the water was a dark brown downstream from the mill while upstream it was crystal clear.

Upstream, no traces of the cancer causing compound dioxin. You see the river was just not large enough or had enough flow to dilute the effluent from the plant so the river was basically poisoned, and this had been going on since 1908.

Now during the 80's and 90's when I lived there, North Carolina was predominately democrat. Again the state was responsible for enforcing the federal clean water act.

Now clearly they were not doing that.

So was the GOP responsible for that disaster?

Die plants routinely discharged chemically polluted waste water into the rivers of the blue ridge mountains. Champion Dye and finishing where I worked routinely overloaded the effluent pipe to the city waste water treatment center, and that waste water went into the French Broad river. This was pretty much common until the year before I left, when the city stepped in and flat out told the plant managers that production would stop if the effluent pipe to the city plant was over loaded. This was after a larger effluent pipe line to the waste water treatment plant had been built.

You see, Champion sports wear saw they were no where near using the capacity of the new effluent pipe line, so they put in newer and bigger dye jets, raising production by more than double the previous levels, so once more, the plant was dumping dye and chemically polluted waste water into the river.

It was not the state people that came down on Champion Sports wear, it was the federal boys, the state dudes kinda sat on their collective thumbs and looked at the sky.

Champion was so badly hit by fines that within a year, it was bought out by the investment fund that owned Sarah Lee.

GOP controlled inspectors had nothing to do with that, it was all Democrat.




cloudboy -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 8:01:19 AM)


Long as environmental regulations are enforced I'm more content. If an administration guts environmental protections to promote Chinese style economic growth --- the outcomes will be a disaster.




MercTech -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 9:11:58 AM)

Frankly, I suspect that one of the root causes of the disasters is actually endemic in the American business model; the concept that one trained in management can manage a process they are clueless about.
Too often, in an industrial environment, the person pointing out the face that a procedure or equipment deficiency could have regulatory consequences is ostracized. Pointing out that "doing action A would easily cause an accident" is met by blank looks when reported to management.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 11:16:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Frankly, I suspect that one of the root causes of the disasters is actually endemic in the American business model; the concept that one trained in management can manage a process they are clueless about.
Too often, in an industrial environment, the person pointing out the face that a procedure or equipment deficiency could have regulatory consequences is ostracized. Pointing out that "doing action A would easily cause an accident" is met by blank looks when reported to management.

Bullseye.




Owner59 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 11:55:35 AM)

Yeah......capitalism at it`s best........errrr worst.




cloudboy -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 12:44:16 PM)


Without regulatory enforcement, American citizens can expect more of the same.




Owner59 -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 12:47:15 PM)

But just think of how many dolts the republicans can fool into thinking Obama is to blame.......


Just to many plus sides to being corporate polluter or their ass licking gop employees to stop now......




MercTech -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 7:27:19 PM)

I'm sick of hearing Democrat vs Republican.
The conflict is more like citizens vs beltway bandits.




JeffBC -> RE: Environmental Disaster in North Carolina (3/2/2014 7:58:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I'm sick of hearing Democrat vs Republican.
The conflict is more like citizens vs beltway bandits.

bingo.




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