For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 2:39:13 PM)

Two fatal dog maulings in the last couple of weeks made national news, guess what?

Neither of them were committed by Pit bulls.

The first was a shepherd mix, possibly feral. The second was a Bull Mastif that had been cruelly teased by kids in the neighborhood for months.

4 year old killed by dog


New Jersey teen, 13, killed by 115-pound dog that also attacked another teen and its owner Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/n-teen-killed-115-pound-dog-wounded-article-1.1707604#ixzz2uwShitH5

and here are some stats for you to study.




[image]local://upfiles/622970/5FFBC4854B8D4130BFF937CC11C5832F.jpg[/image]




jlf1961 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 2:40:58 PM)

try again

[image]local://upfiles/622970/C77203F3B255441195BC9035830378D6.jpg[/image]




smileforme50 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 4:35:13 PM)

I used to have 2 pit bulls with my ex-bf. Those were the 2 sweetest, gentlest dogs I've ever known. We used to give them raw beef soup bones....they LOVED them. They would each take their bone and run off to their respective corners. We could walk up to them at any time and take the bones right out of their mouths and they would just look at us waiting for us to give them back.

We also had 2 cats....neither one of the dogs were ever aggressive toward the cats, but one of them was always curious and wanted to "check out" the cats and try to get them to play. One time one of the cats swiped his claw at the dog's face and caught her in the upper "lip". The dog just froze into place with the cat hanging from her lip. She never moved or growled or made any attempt to fight the cat. She just waited for us to take them apart.




FrostedFlake -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 4:36:44 PM)

Shouldn't Alex Trebek be here?




Utopia48 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 5:53:17 PM)

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2013.php





TNDommeK -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 7:49:35 PM)

I love my pittie!!!




TheHeretic -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 7:53:04 PM)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, Jlf.

I know wonderful pitbulls. My brother has one that is a total snuggle monster, and rings a bell on the front door when he needs to go outside. I wouldn't have one just because I don't really care for the entire terrier family. I have a lazy streak, so dogs with a lazy streak are a better fit to my family.

I'm a dog person, I once had what most people (and my homeowners insurance company) think of as a most dangerous breed, and even with a beard and wearing a hat, make friends with the overwhelming number of dogs I meet.

That said...

When I encounter a stray dog, there are two breeds that always raise my awareness a little bit higher - chows and pits, in that order. On a first encounter, those are the two I automatically won't turn my back on.

The breed is muscular and compact. They have the characteristic tenacious attitude and energy of the whole terrier class, and they are tough. All good. But the inhabitant of the thug culture have embraced the breed, and they have done it a lot of damage. You can easily find dogs that have been heavily bred for aggression through multiple generations.

It isn't how often pits bite/attack, but just how effective and deadly they are when it happens. A pack of chihuahuas isn't going to literally rip an innocent person to pieces.

It would be good, I think, if we started thinking of this as two very different breeds that look alike. The ghetto pit variant needs to go.

I think we can still save a great breed for those who like the breed, but I also think we need to pull them back from the brink. In places like where I live (75% of the dogs at the shelter were pits, when I was over there last), breed specific mandatory spay/neuter needs to be in place, and enforced. Legal breeding needs to be contained to the kennel clubs. It's going to take a while.

One of the 2013 attacks described in a link on the thread happened not far from me. I know way more detail about that whole tragedy than I like knowing. The owner of the dogs is awaiting trial on murder charges. It's a shame the death penalty isn't available for him, as well as the dogs.




tiggerspoohbear -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/3/2014 10:09:26 PM)

My early 20 something neighbor owns 2 Staffordshire terriers. Pits I guess. One is about 2 yrs old, the other is about 6 mos old. They're all bark, no bite and the biggest suck ups I've ever met.

We're going to be the proud new owners of a 2 yr old black lab as a companion dog by the end of this month. Lucky enough to have had him provided by the Wounded Warriors, a privately run organization totally separate from any gov't sanctioned programs.




AthenaSurrenders -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 2:01:33 AM)

fr

In the UK the Pit Bull Terrier is covered by the Dangerous Dogs Act. In short, you can't have one without a court exemption, and then it must be insured, registered, neutered, microchipped and muzzled when outdoors.

Needless to say this doesn't prevent people from having them. The type of people who tend to have them are those who think it makes them look tough. In short, they've become a thuggish accessory. So while I might not judge the dog, I sure as hell am going to be wary of it, since unless you've gone to the trouble of doing all the things required by the law I can't believe you're a responsible pet owner who raised the dog to be safe. That breed of dog attracts dangerous owners.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26131934 Harrowing example. It did turn out the dog in this case was illegally held and was named 'Killer' of all things.




DaddySatyr -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 2:20:38 AM)

I have never had any interaction with either pit bulls or American Staffordshire Terriers where the dog didn't show aggression or the owner when asked:

"Does your dog bite?"

hasn't answered: "Well, not if you move really slowly and ..."

I don't trust the fucking things. Whether some "expert" tells me they're safe or not, I've seen too much evidence to have formed my own opinion.

I do feel bad for them because it's humans that have bred them to be the terrors they are.







jlf1961 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 4:06:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Utopia48

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2013.php




You do know that site is run by a person who hates pit bulls? Unidentified dogs get grouped with the pitties.

You might want to know that dogs involved in attacks that have been identified as pits turn out to be a different breed about half the time, and they news media rarely issues a correction, thus the media is the primary cause for the inflated numbers.

I suggest you go here.

quote:

The co-occurring factors are potentially preventable



Based on an analysis of all DBRFs known to have occurred over a ten-year period, the researchers identified a striking co-occurrence of multiple, controllable factors:

• no able-bodied person being present to intervene (87.1%);
• the victim having no familiar relationship with the dog(s) (85.2%);
• the dog(s) owner failing to neuter/spay the dog(s)(84.4%);
• a victim’s compromised ability, whether based on age or physical condition, to manage their interactions with the dog(s) (77.4%);
• the owner keeping dog(s) as resident dog(s), rather than as family pet(s) (76.2%);
• the owner’s prior mismanagement of the dog(s) (37.5%);
• the owner’s abuse or neglect of dog(s) (21.1%).



Four or more of these factors were present in 80.5% of the cases.
- See more at: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/#sthash.wOfN6xO4.dpuf


Also a key point is this:

quote:

Breed was not one of the factors identified



The authors report that the breed of the dog or dogs could not be reliably identified in more than 80% of cases. News accounts disagreed with each other and/or with animal control reports in a significant number of incidents, casting doubt on the reliability of breed attributions and more generally for using media reports as a primary source of data for scientific studies. In only 45 (18%) of the cases in this study could these researchers make a valid determination that the animal was a member of a distinct, recognized breed. Twenty different breeds, along with two known mixes, were identified in connection with those 45 incidents.
- See more at: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/#sthash.wOfN6xO4.dpuf


But as we all know, if you are biased against something, the facts will not change your mind.




LadyConstanze -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 4:13:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Utopia48

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2013.php




You know what the problem with that is? I believe that in 99% of all cases a dog bite is a human error, it's the owner not raising and training the dog the right way, or the person being bitten making the most fundamental mistakes.


In the UK there are tons of Staffies and a lot of people have Jack Russells, I happen to have 2 rescue Dobermans, the dogs have both been bitten by a lot of Staffies and once almost been killed by a Jack Russell who got underneath the boy and almost gutted him. I would never blame the breed, there are some idiots here who think an aggressive dog makes them more "manly", they do everything to get the dogs aggressive, they have ZERO control over their dogs, and yes, those dogs cause incidents. Would make a lot more sense to put the effing owners down. Staffies are lovely dogs IN THE RIGHT HANDS, same as Pits, it doesn't take a lot to turn a dog into a ticking time bomb and I have no time for "dog owners" who can't be bothered to train their dogs or work with them, they shouldn't effing have them. When it comes to Jack Russells, well those dogs were bred to be hunting dogs, they look cute and small but they are super energetic Terriers, they don't get enough exercise, they tend to get aggressive. Again not the dog's fault - fault of the owner.

The girl was bitten so often, she started to have dog aggression, we worked with a dog trainer, done and over now, didn't happen over night, but I can't say I blame her, somewhere after being bitten the 7th time she decided to growl at dogs who approached, didn't help that she has a docked tail and is black, made it much more difficult for other dogs to read the signs that she is friendly. She's fine now, she will even play with Staffies if they approach her in a friendly fashion, if they don't, I call her back and place myself between her and the dog and chase the other dog away. I'm the pack leader, she looks at me for guidance, a dog that is overly aggressive is usually an insecure dog, the human has failed to be the pack leader and the dog thinks it needs to be on the defensive, super stressful for a dog.
When we got the boy, he was 2 years old and had gone through 5 homes, history of abuse as a puppy, he's terrified of brooms, had taken a chunk out of a previous owner, turned out the stupid bitch had tried to beat him with a broom into submission, when he was a bouncy teenager and growled at her (duhhh male Dobies do tend to grumble especially when young, it's really like a teenager mumbling, part of growing up) X-rays showed he had broken ribs, if he would have meant business, it wouldn't have been a little nip, watch them demolish bones... He's now such a good natured baby, the only problem we had with him was the neighbour brat coming into our backyard and hitting him on the nose repeatedly. I kept telling the brat to stop doing it (dog noses are sensitive), I think somebody with 6 or 7 ought to understand, no joy, so idiot child did it again and as usually ran away screaming. Dog padded after him, grabbed him by the seat of the pants (not a scratch on the bastard) and carried him over to the brat's house and dumped him in front of his mother, who went nuts. So I went a bit nuts and told her that if her brat does that to the wrong dog, then she won't have a brat anymore and if she can't teach a kid that age that it is wrong to torture animals, she's a massive fail as a mother, what is he doing on our yard anyway... She huffed off, especially when her husband agreed and told the boy if he ever does it again, his toys will be confiscated. A few days later I watch the brat sneaking up to our big cat sleeping in the sun and grabbing his tail, big cat boy is super shy and doesn't like anybody but the dogs and his mom (vet laughs that she is never worried about the dogs but scared when we bring the cats in for shots), cat went absolutely mental and the little shit ended up bleeding, needless to say that I went and bought a steak for the cat!

Seriously, whenever I hear about dangerous dogs and stuff like dog bit baby, I think about all the "cute pics" idiots post on FB where a little child grabs a dog by the ear or the lips, the dog looks usually utterly terrified - and that's how a lot of those bites happen, not the fault of the dog, the fault of people who shouldn't have kids - or pets.

Dogs aren't unpredictable or dangerous, they are made that way by humans who are too lazy, too stupid or just plainly too fucked up themselves.

You look at fatalities, well naturally a bigger dog will have a bigger bite, that's a bit BS, almost like saying a truck crashing into you is more fatal than a pram. If you do look at the overall bites, you'll find that the purse dogs have the highest bite incidents, because the stupid bints who have them as fashion accessories don't bother training them, only if one of those barking rats bites you, there isn't the power behind it a real dog has, the bite is less severe so they don't get reported.

Try this one: http://www.dogbiteclaims.co.uk/dangerous-breeds.html


Dachshunds
Chihuahua
Jack Russell
Australian Cattle Dog
Cocker Spaniel
Beagle
Border Collie
Pit Bull Terrier
Great Dane
English Springer Spaniel







chatterbox24 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 5:17:16 AM)

ditto. Had encounters with both these breeds that were insane. One I owned was half pitbull, the other was a friends chow who knew me very well. I love dogs too.
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, Jlf.

I know wonderful pitbulls. My brother has one that is a total snuggle monster, and rings a bell on the front door when he needs to go outside. I wouldn't have one just because I don't really care for the entire terrier family. I have a lazy streak, so dogs with a lazy streak are a better fit to my family.

I'm a dog person, I once had what most people (and my homeowners insurance company) think of as a most dangerous breed, and even with a beard and wearing a hat, make friends with the overwhelming number of dogs I meet.

That said...

When I encounter a stray dog, there are two breeds that always raise my awareness a little bit higher - chows and pits, in that order. On a first encounter, those are the two I automatically won't turn my back on.

The breed is muscular and compact. They have the characteristic tenacious attitude and energy of the whole terrier class, and they are tough. All good. But the inhabitant of the thug culture have embraced the breed, and they have done it a lot of damage. You can easily find dogs that have been heavily bred for aggression through multiple generations.

It isn't how often pits bite/attack, but just how effective and deadly they are when it happens. A pack of chihuahuas isn't going to literally rip an innocent person to pieces.

It would be good, I think, if we started thinking of this as two very different breeds that look alike. The ghetto pit variant needs to go.

I think we can still save a great breed for those who like the breed, but I also think we need to pull them back from the brink. In places like where I live (75% of the dogs at the shelter were pits, when I was over there last), breed specific mandatory spay/neuter needs to be in place, and enforced. Legal breeding needs to be contained to the kennel clubs. It's going to take a while.

One of the 2013 attacks described in a link on the thread happened not far from me. I know way more detail about that whole tragedy than I like knowing. The owner of the dogs is awaiting trial on murder charges. It's a shame the death penalty isn't available for him, as well as the dogs.






LadyConstanze -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 5:40:08 AM)

A friend from Austria recently told me that they have dog licenses, if you want a dog (they're all registered and chipped in Austria and dog wardens can check dogs, also makes it easier to track shits who abandon their dogs) you have to fill out some paperwork that shows if you know enough about dogs, when you get the dog, you have to attend classes or a test that shows how much control you have over your dog, if you're not having control, your dog has to wear a muzzle and is not allowed to go off the lead...

The people wanting a dog are paying for the classes and licenses, not terribly expensive, but they (rightly in my opinion) claim if you can't afford 10 or 20 for that, you can't afford vet bills or proper food and shouldn't have a dog. Also all shelters will neuter the dogs before they pass them on...




mnottertail -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 6:28:17 AM)

I'm for pitbulls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tMV96xULk




chatterbox24 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 7:04:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I'm for pitbulls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tMV96xULk



Ha, now that's a cool pitbull. Love that song.




TieMeInKnottss -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 12:03:03 PM)

One thing that is really overlooked with ANY breed of dog is the compatiability with the owner. Much like us who are on one side or the other, dogs also have dominant,,assertive or submissive personalities. Some breeds, by nature, will be more likely to be followers or aggressors. When they bred dogs for specific jobs...they removed gene lines for the characteristics they did not want to appear. Just like people that does not MEAN that all dogs of a breed are identical just that it is there to come out in some cases more than others.

Dogs, being pack animals, want hierarchy. Idealy, people select a dog that fits into their "pack". All dogs want an alpha and, if one is not available, will try to BECOME the alpha. This, of course, works the same as it works for us. If you don't have a strong personality and able to put the dog into his "pack place" you get a dog who tries to take over. Dogs are opportunistic and are going to try to seize the role for survival sake if nothing else.

I have a wonderful wheaten terrier who is more submissive than me which means I can always dominate him because he does not feel insecure with me. This is not FEAR!!!T This is just a happy dog who have no interest in being in charge. On the other hand, my ex Dom gave me his shepherd/pit bull dog when he moved. This dog, under his control, was docile and obedient. With me, he has bitten 2 people (luckily. Not badly). Sadly, I love this dog but I can't dominate him...it does not fit my personality so he has to go to an owner who is more assertive than me and who will be his "alpha"

It is not good dogs, bad dogs or even good vs bad owners..it is matching personalities. It is the human's responsibility to not get a dog whose personality or who genetically may NOT be suited... I have to do right by this dog. I cannot be the alpha he needs which puts him in a position of having to try to BE the alpha...and THAT is where the problems lie.




LadyConstanze -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 12:25:18 PM)

Actually you do know that every dog trainer trains less the dogs but the owners... I'm pretty sure you could easily be alpha with the other dog, you just need to change a little bit, for example you don't feed him before he sits down, he wants to eat, you stand before him and tell him NO, you take his food bowl away when he has eaten, you don't give him treats from your hand (and elevate his status) but you throw it on the floor and walk away like the alpha dog would do... It's honestly not rocket science, I have 2 Dobies, they are notoriously stubborn but they are really little lambs, and with dogs everything works with the pecking order, the highest one eats first...

Additionally, this dog was given to you, he's going through some real trauma as he has lost his old pack/owner, so naturally he's testing out boundaries with you, and yes, never let them on the furniture uninvited, it also elevates their status...

Come on, humans are usually more clever than dogs, surely you are a bit more clever than the dog and can train him, no need to be overly assertive, just a few changes and being firm




Utopia48 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 6:01:20 PM)

Well jlf1961...if You read the footnote 2 at the end of the link I posted it (see below) answers a lot of your questions to me. I will say I believe it is the people who own them and what they have done to them most of the time to make them the way they are but that still doesn't change what they do...I think they are one of the cutest dogs out there but I would always be wary around them.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2013.pdf




jlf1961 -> RE: For the Anti Pit Bull _________s (3/4/2014 6:20:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Utopia48

Well jlf1961...if You read the footnote 2 at the end of the link I posted it (see below) answers a lot of your questions to me. I will say I believe it is the people who own them and what they have done to them most of the time to make them the way they are but that still doesn't change what they do...I think they are one of the cutest dogs out there but I would always be wary around them.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2013.pdf


I have been over that site a number of times.

The truth is that this woman has skewed stats, she stops at the news paper report, she never follows up with the reports from animal control or the police. So her data cannot be considered as even close.

The groups the data that most people follow and trust I linked to. Granted it was compiled by veterinarians, probably more qualified to identify a breed than most observers, not that it is important.




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