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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/21/2014 5:30:14 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

If it is easier to get people to wrap their heads around civil union, then that's what we should do.

I tend toward half-a-loaf pragmatism, so I understand this perspective. A decade ago, I might have shared it. And indeed, there may still be parts of the country where civil unions are as good as it gets.

But I'm awfully glad I have LGBT brothers and sisters, braver and bolder than I am, who had the vision to fight for the whole loaf. Thus far, they and countless straight allies have achieved marriage equality in 17 states--something I honestly never expected to see in my lifetime.

ETA: Not to mention 16 other countries around the globe, along with some jurisdictions in Mexico.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/21/2014 5:35:40 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 481
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/21/2014 7:21:29 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Bickering over possession of a word is bullshit. If the radicals on the right would stop butting heads with the radicals on the left, the rest of us might be able to get something accomplished.


I don't think this is a "radicals on the left" problem. I looks to me like a political strategy. That the left thinks that getting equal rights for homosexuals via gay marriage will involve much less legislation that the radicals on the right could block. And seeing that they look to be winning with this strategy it doesn't make a lot of sense to go with the other more complex less likely to be successful plan.

P.S. If you want the rest of us to be able to get something accomplished consider not voting for right wing radicals.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 482
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/21/2014 10:52:34 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Well for one I think homosexuals should have a less prominent role in the TV media. They far outnumber the straight people these days. It's like a constant gayparade watching TV today. It's just..... awkward or queer like you love saying. I have my reasons and evidence to say we are creating masses of false queers these days that aren't even gay to begin with. So if you do that, then let's give 'em equal rights.
Agree?


I don't really watch that much TV, although I never really saw it as a "constant gayparade." How many shows are like that?

How do we create "masses of false queers"? There are people claiming to be gay when they're not gay? Why would they do that?


The female reporters on Fox News and on Fox Business, they are a drag queens idea of heaven...heavy makeup, killer heels, poofed out hair, seventh heaven



Was there a point to this or are you just feeling particularity catty today?

It was meant to be sardonic humor, at the idiotic quote about how gay tv is

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/21/2014 11:06:57 PM   
njlauren


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Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But you claimed that it doesn't matter. Such a claim is either disingenuous or naïve.

Except that you can't show why. Because if civil unions were established with the same rights as marriage, then gay unions would enjoy the same rights as hetero unions -- as a matter of law -- and any "connotations" it might please someone to attach to those terms would have no bearing on the matter.

K.



I would favor civil unions if they forced everyone to get them, and for a very big reason. Because in the US states control marriage, if we created a system with anything but everyone needing a civil union to get benefits, you would have the same problem as today. For example,let's say John Boehner and about 70% of the GOP in both houses of congress died in plane crashes and tornadoes, and the federal government amended laws to say that civil unions or domestic partnerships made by states would be given the same rights as marriage by the feds, you would think that is that...but the problem is, states, especially in God's little acre, would not recogize it. For anything to work, it also would require that all 50 states recognize the term.

Right now all 50 states recognize the term marriage, and given that courts have struck down states banning same sex marriage in recent months, we are getting to where all 50 states will be forced to recognize it. On the other hand, if a couple has a civic union from state A, given that very few other states have that term, the courts can't do anything, but they can say, rightfully, that our state doesn't have that...which means for that to work, all 50 states would need to have civic unions for this to work, but there is no way to force them to.

In theory, we could change everything to civic unions, but the practical reality is that I would bet good money that a lot of straight couples would refuse having their marriage turned into a civil union by the state for legal rights, and that a lot of those people would be doing it because they saw/wanted their 'marriage' to be superior.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 484
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/21/2014 11:19:24 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Bickering over possession of a word is bullshit. If the radicals on the right would stop butting heads with the radicals on the left, the rest of us might be able to get something accomplished.


I don't think this is a "radicals on the left" problem. I looks to me like a political strategy. That the left thinks that getting equal rights for homosexuals via gay marriage will involve much less legislation that the radicals on the right could block. And seeing that they look to be winning with this strategy it doesn't make a lot of sense to go with the other more complex less likely to be successful plan.

P.S. If you want the rest of us to be able to get something accomplished consider not voting for right wing radicals.

The other problem with that more complex/less likely plan of civic unions is that you would have de facto inequality, especially in garden spots like Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi, not to mention dear old Texas. You can bet good money and not lose it that let's say the courts rule that other states, through the full faith and credit clause, had to accept civic unions as being the same as marriage (especially as the feds recognized it), it still wouldn't work, because in practical reality, people would refuse to recognize it routinely, and those having it would have to fight for everything, even if they won.

Kirata and others thing if you say in the law 'this civic union is legally the same thing as marriage', but it is hogwash. In NJ, supposedly a liberal state, when gays were given civil unions after the courts ruled that legislators had to guarantee same sex couples the same rights, the legislator choose civil unions. The problem is that couples with civil unions found that they had to fight for the rights that married couples got without batting an eyebrow, when for example a partner was sick, hospitals practically required the partner to get a lawyer to get the rights; in wills the civic union spouse often ended up fighting blood kin for the right to an estate, something that would never get into court if the deceased had been married to their spouse. The NJ Supreme Court was ready to rule that civic unions were a failure, when the end of the first part of DOMA made that moot (basically, once Uncle Sam recognized same sex marriage for full rights, civic unions were no longer equal)...

The real inequality of the situation is that the name matters, that marriage the term is so tied to rights and modes of living, that civic union recipients would have to fight for what is given to married people automatically, which makes it inferior. If I have to explain to someone that a civic union is the same as being married, if I have to, when filling out a form, explain what a civic union is, whereas someone writing 'married' is clearly understand, it is a burden. Everyone knows and understand what marriage means by default, but civil unions does not enjoy that, which makes it inferior.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 12:14:57 AM   
Kirata


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Somebody else in the fish business. The debate has revolved around the issue of civil unions with the same rights as marriage. Popular support for civil unions with the same rights as marriage passed the 50% mark eight years ago. But there was no push for them. The push was for something else. So you are in no position now to bandy complaints if those aren't the kind of civil unions you got.

K.










< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/22/2014 12:19:00 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 1:35:22 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The debate has revolved around the issue of civil unions with the same rights as marriage.


From where I sit, the issue is equality, plain and simple.

Personally I couldn't care less who gets married to whom or whatever arrangements people in commited relationships make with each other. My interest starts and stops at ensuring they are consensual and exactly the same for for everyone, regardless of their preference(s).

Because the current arrangements relating to marriage actively favour heterosexual relationships, and actively discriminate against non-hetero relationships, there is a real need to change these arrangements so that they are exactly the same for everyone, regardless of preference, gender, race stc.

When this damaging hurtful discrimination ceases, when everyone enjoys the same rights obligations and privileges, then my interest in the issue of marriage will cease too.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/22/2014 1:36:55 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:13:38 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Somebody else in the fish business. The debate has revolved around the issue of civil unions with the same rights as marriage. Popular support for civil unions with the same rights as marriage passed the 50% mark eight years ago. But there was no push for them. The push was for something else. So you are in no position now to bandy complaints if those aren't the kind of civil unions you got.

K.












Another way of saying I support inequality......


We got it.....


We understand your need to dress it up w/ pseudo-intellectual jibber jabber, to get around the guilt and embarrassment of association with our anti-gay-rights movement and it`s ugly machinations(fred phelps)....


But please also understand we see past your bull shit.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/22/2014 7:19:01 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 488
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:26:19 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When this damaging hurtful discrimination ceases, when everyone enjoys the same rights obligations and privileges, then my interest in the issue of marriage will cease too.


Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal?


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 489
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:27:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Somebody else in the fish business. The debate has revolved around the issue of civil unions with the same rights as marriage. Popular support for civil unions with the same rights as marriage passed the 50% mark eight years ago. But there was no push for them. The push was for something else. So you are in no position now to bandy complaints if those aren't the kind of civil unions you got.

K.



Another way of saying I support inequality......


We got it.....


We understand your need to dress it up w/ pseudo-intellectual jibber jabber, to get around the guilt and embarrassment of association with our anti-gay-rights movement and it`s ugly machinations(fred phelps)....


But please also understand we see past your bull shit.

What Owner said QFT

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 490
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:36:32 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When this damaging hurtful discrimination ceases, when everyone enjoys the same rights obligations and privileges, then my interest in the issue of marriage will cease too.


Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal?




No one has said that conservatives can`t make pretend that legal marriage is something other than legal marriage....


Make pretend is in fact....your Constitutional right....


Less and less though......will your elk be able to impose their religion-cloaked bigotry on the rest of us.


The notion that "christians" are being forced to believe in gay marriage is bush-shit.....




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/22/2014 7:40:28 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 491
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:49:18 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When this damaging hurtful discrimination ceases, when everyone enjoys the same rights obligations and privileges, then my interest in the issue of marriage will cease too.


Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal?




No one has said that conservatives can`t make pretend that legal marriage is something other than legal marriage....


Make pretend is in fact....your Constitutional right....


Less and less though......will your elk be able to impose their religion-cloaked bigotry on the rest of us.


The notion that "christians" are being forced to believe in gay marriage is bush-shit.....




Interesting non-response as it does not address my question. I thought it was plain enough. Still do.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 492
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:50:31 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

No one has said that conservatives can`t make pretend that legal marriage is something other than legal marriage....

Make pretend is in fact....your Constitutional right....

Less and less though......will your elk be able to impose their religion-cloaked bigotry on the rest of us.

The notion that "christians" are being forced to believe in gay marriage is bush-shit.....



Interesting non-response as it does not address my question. I thought it was plain enough. Still do.



Yachtie, you own an elk and haven't shared a photo with us? Someone of your ilk should be more open to sharing.





< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/22/2014 7:52:40 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:54:31 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		This is why I always say conservatives should leave intellect to the intellectuals and stick with their strong point.......spell check....


Plain to see the quickness and dedication....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/22/2014 7:55:43 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 494
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 7:58:08 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This is why I always say conservatives should leave intellect to the intellectuals and stick with their strong point.......spell check....


Plain to see the quickness and dedication....



You're jealous because DaddySatyr possesses an extra share of brains.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 495
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 8:03:20 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		[ED to fix my idiotic wording]

Forgive me Yachtie, I'm not completely clear about what you meant by...

quote:

Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal?


Where you asking tweakabelle to clarify whether she simply supported legal gay marriage or whether she wanted religious groups to be required to perform gay marriages?



< Message edited by crazyml -- 3/22/2014 8:04:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 496
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 8:05:37 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

[ED to fix my idiotic wording]

Forgive me Yachtie, I'm not completely clear about what you meant by...

quote:

Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal?


Where you asking tweakabelle to clarify whether she simply supported legal gay marriage or whether she wanted religious groups to be required to perform gay marriages?




Yes, you are quite clear.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 497
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 8:07:57 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This is why I always say conservatives should leave intellect to the intellectuals and stick with their strong point.......spell check....

Plain to see the quickness and dedication....



You're jealous because DaddySatyr possesses an extra share of brains.



That and the fact that spellcheck wouldn't have caught "elk" as it is, indeed, a word. Now, mis-use of words is kind of what this whole thread has turned into.

The people who are fighting so vehemently to own a word are leaving a trail of destruction as far as the turning of a blind eye to the fact that "civil unions" for ALL would alleviate all of the non-equality issues.

They just have to have that word. It has to be theirs.

If they really gave a flying fiddler's fuck about people being excluded from rights, they'd agree to actually (He's gonna use a word here that most PPLs don't understand) compromise. They'd agree to a victory, giving them all the rights they seek for same sex partners and all they would have to relinquish is their nit-picking position of ownership of a word.

You know, if you offered the same sex couples the rights that they seek (and I feel they should have) under the term "civil union", I'd be willing to bet that a large portion would happily accept them.

For my part, I'd be extremely happy because it would allow me to life my life (spiritually) as I chose and not allow government to control who I love.

I understand, though. The Lunatic Left has needed to destroy for decades. It's the only way they feel they've won anything. Scorched earth FTW!





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 498
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 8:26:52 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

If they really gave a flying fiddler's fuck about people being excluded from rights, they'd agree to actually (He's gonna use a word here that most PPLs don't understand) compromise. They'd agree to a victory, giving them all the rights they seek for same sex partners and all they would have to relinquish is their nit-picking position of ownership of a word.

If only we uppity queer folk would stop having our own ideas of equality and accept that the straight white guys know what's best for us.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 499
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/22/2014 8:56:30 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
If only we uppity queer folk would stop having our own ideas of equality and accept that the straight white guys know what's best for us.


It's not about knowing what best for you. It is about leaving the meaning of a word intact. You've already co-opted "gay," isn't that enough?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 500
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