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RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 12:37:47 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

On a lighter note, some classic Cheech & Chong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1sPmbj3t6E



Far out, man!!

(Makes me wonder what my old C & C albums will be worth)



< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 3/11/2014 12:39:34 AM >


_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 1:14:53 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

First of all, I'm talking about marijuana, not heroin or coke. I don't support the legalization of those types of drugs for recreational use.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find many instances of deaths caused by marijuana although I'm sure there are some. But considering I'm a believer that living in a free society is never going to be risk free, I'm willing to accept whatever number of deaths are created by such circumstances. If that makes me a grim reaper then so be it. But that's also why I'd like to see reasonable controls put in place before we allow the masses to fully access it. Hopefully to limit incidents of damage.



My post was not meant to "point a finger". It really just was "food for thought".

I agree with you that with liberties come risks and responsibilities. In fact, I think it's one of the tenets upon which our lifestyle here is based.

Having said that, I don't believe that marijuana causes a high number of deaths in-and-of-itself. I do believe that marijuana is addictive. I have seen it with my own eyes.

When we talk about "lives" in the context of addiction, it's not just about deaths, though. It's also (as I mentioned) about lives that are ruined or "wasted". Sure, only the individual can determine if their life has been ruined or wasted but, surely, we've all seen some examples.

I've seen families torn apart by addiction (yes even "just" to marijuana) because one partner expressed concern and the other partner insisted that they had everything under control.

The families that, from the outside, seemed almost idyllic were laid waste by the refusal of one of the parties to give up ... well ... "partying".

As so many pot smokers like to bring up, pot smoking is very similar to alcohol use and both activities spawn a their fair share of abuse as opposed to use.

I think that with legalization will come the removal of stigma which will allow people to talk about the real causes of some of their strife and we may find out that weed does, indeed, have a lot in common with alcohol. I also think that we will find out that it ain't all sunshine and rainbows.





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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 1:57:16 AM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

First, I think that while many things can become physically addicting, most of the problems we see involve the more difficult to change, mental addictions. Some personalities really are more vulnerable to addictions of all sorts.

Second, your example involves a drug that while legal and prescribed, specifically affects a brain chemical. That's important! Not feeling high from it is a subjective experience. Not feeling anything may be good or bad. Blood pressure is the silent killer. So, that prescribed drug you use, it comes with a long list of effects, warnings and dangers, which for marketing reasons, are called, get this... "side" effects!

So, if I were sitting on a board to determine workplace safety in regard to competence, I would not care whether the person ingested something legal or illegal, prescribed, or over the counter. If it affects the brain or reflexes or some other function, then THAT is what would deserve my focus.

OP - I'm pro-legalization. I never saw any until I was 18. My parents must have seen that film, "Reefer Madness." I was afraid of the criminal pot smokers and would avoid contact. Yeah, I outgrew that. LOL


Who gets to decide whether a drug is safe to use in the workplace? Should it be a medical professional or a middle manager? The TVA example I cited it was a HR manager instructing a contract nurse to forbid me taking the medication. The Medical Review Officer was never consulted. I later asked the MRO why when I saw him in the cafeteria and he said he could think of no reason why I couldn't take Tramodol. Meh, when you are doing contract work you don't argue when the customer requires silly shit.

Most of the side effects of Tramadol are from intravenous use of higher doses and not from oral pills, by the way. Only 1.7% of people in the test study showed any side effects as opposed to 17% exhibiting side effects from intravenous use. And the side effects are gastric distress. There are rare cases of sweats and heart palpitations but those are rare. (Yeah, I do my homework when I'm prescribed medications.)

Actually, I have no dog in the hunt over marijuana legalization. I'm allergic to pot smoke and having a burning joint in the same room blocks my nose and gets my throat to constrict. I just think the war on drugs is a waste.

(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 7:59:51 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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Another thing to consider
http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2014/03/10/first-month-of-marijuana-taxes/6257687/

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 8:35:31 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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FR:


There is a huge leap from legalizing marijuana to condoning drug use.

If we spent all the money we spend on the 'war on drugs' we could easily afford free rehab for anyone who wanted it.

No matter what we do, a certain percentage of people are going to love to get high, and a percentage of those will become addicted. This is their way of dealing with the stress of modern society. It's not productive, but there are worst things a person can do, like become violent.

We lock up way too many people here in the US, and that has to stop.







< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 3/11/2014 8:36:06 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 9:59:02 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
My post was not meant to "point a finger". It really just was "food for thought".

I agree with you that with liberties come risks and responsibilities. In fact, I think it's one of the tenets upon which our lifestyle here is based.

Having said that, I don't believe that marijuana causes a high number of deaths in-and-of-itself. I do believe that marijuana is addictive. I have seen it with my own eyes.

When we talk about "lives" in the context of addiction, it's not just about deaths, though. It's also (as I mentioned) about lives that are ruined or "wasted". Sure, only the individual can determine if their life has been ruined or wasted but, surely, we've all seen some examples.

I've seen families torn apart by addiction (yes even "just" to marijuana) because one partner expressed concern and the other partner insisted that they had everything under control.

The families that, from the outside, seemed almost idyllic were laid waste by the refusal of one of the parties to give up ... well ... "partying".

As so many pot smokers like to bring up, pot smoking is very similar to alcohol use and both activities spawn a their fair share of abuse as opposed to use.

It's cool. I didn't think you were pointing fingers. I just wasn't sure if you were talking about pot or drugs in general.

I know what you mean about the ability of something that is considered relatively mild to still have the capacity to ruin lives. I've seen the addiction too, in an ex-girlfriend who was an absolute fiend about getting high. If she didn't have it, she was an unbelievable bitch. When she had it, she was too fucking stupid all the time. I finally had to get away from her.


quote:

I think that with legalization will come the removal of stigma which will allow people to talk about the real causes of some of their strife and we may find out that weed does, indeed, have a lot in common with alcohol. I also think that we will find out that it ain't all sunshine and rainbows.

I think you're absolutely right. That's actually one of the things that pisses me off about the reckless nature that some people are using in their approach to supporting legalization. They're not looking at the bigger picture of introducing a new legal, recreational drug into society and attempting to be rational about it. They just want to be able to get high and "fuck the consequences."

That being said, I do think a pot addiction would be far easier to treat than alcoholism because I don't think it carries the same physical trauma. Having been addicted to alcohol myself (25 years sober now) and a former hardcore pot smoker, I know I never got the DT's from not having pot.



_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 12:34:43 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

First, I think that while many things can become physically addicting, most of the problems we see involve the more difficult to change, mental addictions. Some personalities really are more vulnerable to addictions of all sorts.

Second, your example involves a drug that while legal and prescribed, specifically affects a brain chemical. That's important! Not feeling high from it is a subjective experience. Not feeling anything may be good or bad. Blood pressure is the silent killer. So, that prescribed drug you use, it comes with a long list of effects, warnings and dangers, which for marketing reasons, are called, get this... "side" effects!

So, if I were sitting on a board to determine workplace safety in regard to competence, I would not care whether the person ingested something legal or illegal, prescribed, or over the counter. If it affects the brain or reflexes or some other function, then THAT is what would deserve my focus.

OP - I'm pro-legalization. I never saw any until I was 18. My parents must have seen that film, "Reefer Madness." I was afraid of the criminal pot smokers and would avoid contact. Yeah, I outgrew that. LOL


Who gets to decide whether a drug is safe to use in the workplace? Should it be a medical professional or a middle manager? The TVA example I cited it was a HR manager instructing a contract nurse to forbid me taking the medication. The Medical Review Officer was never consulted. I later asked the MRO why when I saw him in the cafeteria and he said he could think of no reason why I couldn't take Tramodol. Meh, when you are doing contract work you don't argue when the customer requires silly shit. <snip>




What I find ridiculous about Merc's situation is this:

1. If he was allowed pain relief from his medication, he would be more focused on the task at hand. If I was paying an independent contractor, I would want that person at the top of their game, not distracted by needless discomfort. Millions of pain patients are able to work and lead productive lives because of pain medications much more potent than Tramadol.

2. What do you want to bet both the contract nurse AND the middle manager have SOME kind of psychotropic drug on board? More than half the people walking around in the US are regularly taking some kind of prescribed antidepressant, antipsychotic, and/or anxiolytic. Nobody tests for THAT, do they? Yet when mismanaged (as is often the case when trying to dial in proper treatment) those psychotropic drugs can cause a sh*tload more problems for the patient than the straightforward pain relief denied MercTech. MDs prescribe medications without knowing EXACTLY how it will affect their patient; there can be lots of trial and error until the right medication or combos of medications are found. Who gets to say WHICH medication is OK and which is not? I'd say: the patient does based on his/her experience while taking it. Can s/he do the job at hand? No? Get someone else. Yes? Let them do their job and keep your damn nose out of it.

Which brings me to my last point (and back to the topic at hand):

3. Isn't ANY prescribed substance use about being the best you can be; comfortable and productive? What if that substance is cannabis? What if the person 'prescribing' is yourself? Don't you know yourself better and how certain substances affect you than any doctor on the planet?

I know a brilliant pianist who suffers from depression. In the past, he self-medicated with alcohol, realized that drug was providing no benefit, and was indeed detrimental to him and his family. He eschews Rx psychotropics, but found that a particular strain of marijuana keeps him creative, practicing, relaxed, of good cheer and able to care for his two daughters after their mother was killed in an accident. He has a recommendation and grows his own medicine. Do you think because he is a 'pothead' that he's any less a productive member of society? The daily reality is he's MORE productive with pot on board. If it weren't for that, his daughters would be in foster care and he would not be able to make a living providing for his family by practicing his trade.

Lots of people self-medicate with all kinds of substances, for better or worse. Many of them are legal and readily available. Why does the government get to decide which are OK and which aren't?

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Why not legalize Marijuana? - 3/11/2014 4:24:02 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

That being said, I do think a pot addiction would be far easier to treat than alcoholism because I don't think it carries the same physical trauma. Having been addicted to alcohol myself (25 years sober now) and a former hardcore pot smoker, I know I never got the DT's from not having pot.




Congratulations! My parents were drunks so, I know the downfalls, too.

Just a little aside: If you know Bill W., I might have a few interesting stories to share with you.





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 48
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