Protection or persecution? (Full Version)

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MercTech -> Protection or persecution? (3/18/2014 11:05:21 PM)

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/18/high-school-senior-jailed-kicked-out-school-and-may-lose-army-dream-because/?intcmp=obnetwork





jlf1961 -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/18/2014 11:34:34 PM)

First, in my opinion, they violated his rights conducting a search by law enforcement personnel after he requested his parents or his attorney present.

Nor was there any statement of probable cause.

Besides if the knife was in his vehicle, how in the hell is that a threat to any other student?




DaddySatyr -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/18/2014 11:42:44 PM)

The school claimed that they got their probable cause from a post on social media. They gave no indication of what the message might have been.

quote:



School officials told FoxNews.com that possession of the pocket knife was a violation of the school’s zero tolerance policy for bringing weapons on campus and that based on a message he posted on an online forum, they had probable cause to search Wiser and his car. They also insisted Wiser consented to the search.



I don't know if I'd classify this as "persecution" but if this kid is the kind and caring soul the story makes him out to be (volunteers with a first aid squad and plans on joining the military and working in law enforcement), I would say that someone might have a hard-on for him and probably gave him some special attention.







RottenJohnny -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/18/2014 11:42:56 PM)

Personally, I think everyone did as they should have with regard to their actions. The problem for me is the apparent existence of mandated punishments instead of a just method for judging the situation by the school administrators. He shouldn't have left the knife in his car. Zero tolerance. I get that. But there was no malicious intent. The thought that perhaps no one was able to mitigate the punishment because of the no tolerance clause is bullshit if that is the case.




joether -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 4:20:06 AM)

This one is a tough one....

FOX News generally goes out of its way to make government (in this case, the school) the evil, bad guy. And the kid as the victim. The article states he's an EMT trainee, but did not elaborate on where or what organization is giving him this training (i.e. the journalist didn't research well enough). Also, the kid belongs to a shooting club (for the airsoft rifle). No information on that one either (fail again reporter!). The point here is to verify if both things are 'above board' and 'legitimate'. It establishes credibility. This is the first hurdle. I'd like to believe the kid is being honest.

The second hurdle is the 'he said 'A' and school officials said 'B'. This comes down to which side one falls in the debate almost immediately. The kid's answer just feels 'coached'. What I mean is that at the moment they were deciding whether to search the car, he said something to 'negate the action' but the words came out as 'he's hiding something'.

The third hurdle is the article does not mention (to my knowledge) what led school officials to search the car in the first place. Satyr above states the school officials had an online message of sorts directing them to this kid's car. Sounds like other kids playing a mean and rude prank on him, not realizing the shit storm that was able to unfold. Again, the reporter fails to obtain the exact detail(s) of what led school officials to search his car in the first place.

The fourth and final hurdle here is the events after the car is searched. He's jailed for 'x' number of days? What the hell? Is there NO ONE in that community that would stick up to the kid and say "Hey officers, he's a good kid, and trying to do well in the community. No one got hurt, and the kid is emotional/mentally healthy for a kid his age." Where the hell is the kid's parents in all of this?

I've known many teenagers that were not the most 'socially acceptable' in their schools. Their interest range from 'animal trackers' to 'ham radio operators'. They don't have many friends, don't belong to school organizations and are loners; yet they have really good personalities that are more mature for their age. They tend to be above average intelligence, bookish, and creative thinkers. Sounds like this kid falls within this range as well.

Frankly I think the school and the police are being quite a bit over the top on this issue. Either that or the reporter from FOX News is not giving people all of the details, but just those that (as I said in the beginning) paint the kid a victim rather than give a full picture on the story. Hopefully some real good comes out of this, and I hope the kid the best in his future!

Updated Info:

After I posted this, I went searching for more information: Huffington Post

Yeah, that FOX News reporter is 'FAILURE' of journalism. Even with the expanded knowledge from the Huffington Post, I still feel the kid is innocent in all of this.




Kirata -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 10:39:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

I hope that's a rhetorical question. [:D]

K.





thishereboi -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 11:09:14 AM)

I would have to vote for ridiculous persecution. I think the power has gone to their heads and they can't think clearly anymore.




kdsub -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 11:16:48 AM)

Don't you think what was in his online post would be important to this story? And would you not agree that the content of that post may completely change how we look at this story?

I hate sensationalized news for the sake of network exposure and this is exactly what this is. They and other news outlets are very good at presenting half truths and withholding important facts just to make a political point rather than report the news.

Again... I'll bet when the full story comes out the circumstances will be much different...AND I'll bet you will not hear the true story on Fox.

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 11:47:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This one is a tough one....

FOX News generally goes out of its way to make government (in this case, the school) the evil, bad guy. And the kid as the victim. The article states he's an EMT trainee, but did not elaborate on where or what organization is giving him this training (i.e. the journalist didn't research well enough). Also, the kid belongs to a shooting club (for the airsoft rifle). No information on that one either (fail again reporter!). The point here is to verify if both things are 'above board' and 'legitimate'. It establishes credibility. This is the first hurdle. I'd like to believe the kid is being honest.

The second hurdle is the 'he said 'A' and school officials said 'B'. This comes down to which side one falls in the debate almost immediately. The kid's answer just feels 'coached'. What I mean is that at the moment they were deciding whether to search the car, he said something to 'negate the action' but the words came out as 'he's hiding something'.

The third hurdle is the article does not mention (to my knowledge) what led school officials to search the car in the first place. Satyr above states the school officials had an online message of sorts directing them to this kid's car. Sounds like other kids playing a mean and rude prank on him, not realizing the shit storm that was able to unfold. Again, the reporter fails to obtain the exact detail(s) of what led school officials to search his car in the first place.

The fourth and final hurdle here is the events after the car is searched. He's jailed for 'x' number of days? What the hell? Is there NO ONE in that community that would stick up to the kid and say "Hey officers, he's a good kid, and trying to do well in the community. No one got hurt, and the kid is emotional/mentally healthy for a kid his age." Where the hell is the kid's parents in all of this?

I've known many teenagers that were not the most 'socially acceptable' in their schools. Their interest range from 'animal trackers' to 'ham radio operators'. They don't have many friends, don't belong to school organizations and are loners; yet they have really good personalities that are more mature for their age. They tend to be above average intelligence, bookish, and creative thinkers. Sounds like this kid falls within this range as well.

Frankly I think the school and the police are being quite a bit over the top on this issue. Either that or the reporter from FOX News is not giving people all of the details, but just those that (as I said in the beginning) paint the kid a victim rather than give a full picture on the story. Hopefully some real good comes out of this, and I hope the kid the best in his future!

Updated Info:

After I posted this, I went searching for more information: Huffington Post

Yeah, that FOX News reporter is 'FAILURE' of journalism. Even with the expanded knowledge from the Huffington Post, I still feel the kid is innocent in all of this.

We were all teenagers at one time how many times could you (the generalized you as in you'all not
joether in particular) have messed over because being a teenager in moments of stress something
didn't come out quite the way you meant it.




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 11:48:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I would have to vote for ridiculous persecution. I think the power has gone to their heads and they can't think clearly anymore.

I think that they have guidelines giving them an excuse not to think at all.




MercTech -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 12:13:48 PM)

This story has pictures.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583655/High-school-senior-kicked-school-jailed-two-weeks-penknife-car.html

The pocket knife was part of his Emergency Response Kit. The fellow was training for EMT certification. I'll wager he kept his emergency response gear in his car at all times; just like the paid professionals he was training with.

If you want a look at one of the most common types of emergency response knives used by many police and rescue personel:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ridge-Runner-Red-Emergency-Rescue-Knife-Belt-Cutter-Tanto-Blade-/250646257774?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item3a5bae606e

The spike on the butt is for breaking car windows to access trapped people. The notch has a razor sharp blade and is used for cutting seat belts and cutting clothing away from injuries. The strong blade with serrated section can cut rope and line easily and is strong enough to cut away electrical wire.

Now, as stated by the school personnel; the one they confiscated had a three inch blade. Is a 3 inch knife considered a deadly weapon in Ohio?
FYI: Homeland Security guideline for secure federal facilities state that a knife with less than 3 inch blade is not considered a weapon and may be included in your lunch box, but may be forbidden in operational areas. (I had to quit taking my usual steak knife with lunch and purchase a folding knife with 2-3/4 inch blade for my lunch box.)

I have a feeling that the search and seizure done on the kid's car was done by the doctrine of implied consent by bringing the vehicle onto school property. Unless they have a sign posted at the entrance that entry implies permission for search; a good lawyer might get the search tossed out as unreasonable. (Such signs can be found at the entrance to places like power plants. Enter and you have given tacit permission for search of your person and vehicle.)

I find it disgusting that so many areas take "zero tolerance for weapons" to mean they can throw out any kind of sense and attack students (yes, I consider an arrest is an attack on a person and should be justified) for anything vaguely resembling a weapon.

What kind of twisted world view must some have to insist on criminalizing decent productive citizens.




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 12:46:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't you think what was in his online post would be important to this story? And would you not agree that the content of that post may completely change how we look at this story?

I hate sensationalized news for the sake of network exposure and this is exactly what this is. They and other news outlets are very good at presenting half truths and withholding important facts just to make a political point rather than report the news.

Again... I'll bet when the full story comes out the circumstances will be much different...AND I'll bet you will not hear the true story on Fox.

Butch

Only if the post included a threat.




kdsub -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:00:14 PM)

I agree... but the fact that Fox left it out of the story is telling to me.

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:05:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree... but the fact that Fox left it out of the story is telling to me.

Butch


Don't you find it telling that the school didn't claim a threat?




JeffBC -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:10:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

Pretty much the moment your read "zero tolerance policy" in any context whatsoever you know it's ridiculous. Real life just doesn't fit into such nice tidy little boxes. There is only one occasion in my entire life I've ever seen a "zero tolerance policy" that I approved it and it involved alcohol on a nuclear site. I'm the first to admit that the way the specific case played out was not good but the value of "zero tolerance" in that case was worth the one bad outcome and a few more like it here and there.

Most of the things that people have a "zero tolerance policy" of don't rise to the level of nuclear disaster in a populated area so I'm more inclined to want to see the exercise of judgement.




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:21:11 PM)

Here is what Huffington had it included a youtube post which doesn't justify anything



A high school senior in Ohio is facing felony charges after officials at the technical school he was attending for firefighter training searched his vehicle and found a pocketknife. The young man's future and his dreams of serving the public are now in jeopardy.

"If I am convicted of a felony, I'm never going to be a police officer. I'm never going to be a fireman. I'm never going to be in the military," Jordan Wiser told The Huffington Post. "I won't even be able to be a janitor. I'm 18 years old, and this is going to ruin my entire life."

Wiser was enrolled at the Ashtabula County Technical and Career Campus (A-Tech) in Jefferson, Ohio, a small village located about 60 miles northeast of Cleveland. Wiser told HuffPost he was taking A-Tech's Firefighter 2 and EMT courses.

"Last year, I completed the law enforcement course," he said. "I received several certifications, including the National Terror Defense certification from FEMA, the Terror Recognition certification and [certification as an] Emergency Vehicle Operator."

On Dec. 12, 2013, administrators at A-Tech approached Wiser after someone allegedly tipped them off about videos Wiser had uploaded to YouTube.

The YouTube account in question appears to include reviews of video games and merchandise, demonstrations on home defense tactics and an interview with a local police officer.

"The principal said he had reason to believe I had weapons in my vehicle and needed to search it," Wiser said. "He made me empty out all my pockets, and the vice principal grabbed me and patted me down very forcibly. It was somewhat awkward. Then they took my car keys. I told them what was in my car and said, 'Don't be alarmed.'"



Wiser said he did not give school officials permission to search his vehicle, and there was no warrant to perform the search. School administrators, he said, cited the school handbook as their warrant. He claims they also denied his request to call an attorney.

Inside Wiser's vehicle, officials found an assortment of items, including the folding blade pocketknife, a stun gun and two Airsoft guns. Airsoft is a sport in which participants eliminate opponents by hitting them with spherical non-metallic pellets, launched from the Airsoft guns.

Wiser said the Airsoft guns were in his trunk because he had plans to participate in the sport after school. The stun gun, a nonlethal device capable of incapacitating a person by administering electric shock, was for self-defense, he said. The pocketknife was, according to the teen, part of his EMT kit.

"I didn't think anything of the Airsoft guns," Wiser said. "Our school is a technical school, and I was planning on meeting with my Airsoft team after school. My stun gun was locked in the glove box, and the knife was in my EMT medical vest. I bought it at K-Mart and have it as part of my first responder kit for cutting seatbelts."

Wiser was ultimately arrested and jailed for illegal conveyance of a weapon onto a school ground, a Class 5 felony.

Jerome Brockway, the A-Tech superintendent, declined to discuss the case and referred questions to the county prosecutor.

"We charge [people] with everything that we feel they are guilty of, and in this case, he is guilty of a felony," Harold Specht, the chief assistant prosecutor at the Ashtabula County prosecutor's office, told HuffPost.

Specht said the charge is related only to the knife found inside Wiser's vehicle. The teen is not facing charges for possession of the stun gun or the Airsoft guns.

"I was in jail for almost 13 days," Wiser said. "The first bond hearing I went to was on December 15. The judge ordered me [to be] held on a half million-dollar bond, pending a psychological evaluation. I did that and passed. They found I was not suicidal, homicidal or a threat to anybody. My attorney brought it up in front of a different judge, who let me out on a $50,000 bond and an ankle monitor. I was released from jail on Christmas Eve."

Wiser acknowledges he should not have had any of the items on school property and said he is willing to accept punishment for that; however, he does not feel a felony charge is fitting, considering the circumstances.

"There are kids at my school all the time who get caught with knives and are suspended," he said. "My school is very rural, and people carry knives. I can accept the fact that there was a lapse in judgment, and I can accept a punishment, but I have already been expelled from both the tech school and my home school. The Army -- I was enrolled in the Future Soldiers program and was scheduled to ship out in August -- has discharged me, pending a not guilty verdict or dropped charges without prejudice."
A VIDEO FROM WISER'S YOUTUBE PAGE: (Story Continues Below)
Wiser said the conditions of his bond also prohibit him from having any contact with his grandfather, who is dying from cancer.

"The one judge I went in front of told me to remove any firearms from my parents' house and put them at my grandpa's house," Wiser said. "The next judge freaked out about me even knowing what a gun is and put a no contact order against me and my grandparents. My grandfather is dying right now, and I am not allowed within 500 feet of him."

Specht said his office believes the felony charge is justified and has no plans to reduce the charge.

"There are all these school occurrences where people are shot, people are killed by other students," Specht said. "We see it every day … so we don't take these things lightly. … We have to be sure that we don't have a potential for something like that to happen here."

Wiser said he takes offense to the comparison.

"I was enlisted in the Army and went to school to be [a] police officer and fireman," he explained. "Why are they trying to paint me as a potential school shooter? I never had any intentions of hurting a soul."

Wiser's attorney, William Bobulsky, did not return calls for comment from HuffPost.

There was a petition on change.org that demanded the charges be reduced to a misdemeanor. Within 48 hours, the petition garnered 1,349 signatures; however, Wiser said he had to ask that the petition be taken down.

"The court threatened to hold sanctions against me and my lawyer," he said. "I guess the prosecutor was upset because his inbox had been flooded with emails as a result of the petition."

Specht admitted he is aware of the controversy surrounding the case, but he believes he can prove the justification behind the charge when it goes to court.

"I know that there's a load of people out here that just think we're the devil because we're allegedly ruining this young kid's life, and that's not the case at all," he said. "If this goes to trial, it will certainly come out in the wash."

Wiser is scheduled to appear in court again on April 1 for a pretrial hearing. A jury trial is tentatively scheduled for June 11.

Attorney Colin Maher, owner and managing member of The Maher Law Firm in Columbus, Ohio, said the case could go either way once it is given to a jury.

"[Would] a jury consider a four-inch knife as a weapon? I think it would be difficult…but with a jury, you never know," Maher conceded.

For now, Wiser's future remains in the balance.

"Never in my life did I think this would happen," Wiser said. "I dedicated my life to public service, and now a four-inch pocketknife could ruin everything."




DomKen -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/18/high-school-senior-jailed-kicked-out-school-and-may-lose-army-dream-because/?intcmp=obnetwork



The story is a little more than Fox reported.
http://www.starbeacon.com/local/x468539007/A-Tech-student-s-case-bound-over-to-grand-jury




Yachtie -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 1:36:03 PM)

Zero tolerance. Yeah, that's the ticket. Tine for zero tolerance of these administrative asshats. God, how we have crossed the Rubicon.




BamaD -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 2:24:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/18/high-school-senior-jailed-kicked-out-school-and-may-lose-army-dream-because/?intcmp=obnetwork



The story is a little more than Fox reported.
http://www.starbeacon.com/local/x468539007/A-Tech-student-s-case-bound-over-to-grand-jury

See him making threats?




kdsub -> RE: Protection or persecution? (3/19/2014 3:43:01 PM)

From the youtube videos I could find of his I see nothing that would be a threat...I wonder if he knew he was not to bring a knife on school grounds? As a teen it seems a little much to have knives and a stun gun in the truck at school but schools must be careful now days... it is a shame.

If nothing more comes out I could see him kicked out of the school but I do believe a felony charge is a bit much... Maybe some community service...But we will have to see what comes out about the particular posts the school administrator thought gave him reason to search his car.

Butch




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