RE: American Schools Still Racist?

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DesideriScuri -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/22/2014 1:45:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Are you really arguing that across a school district that large the black children are simply twice as likely to misbehave to the point where they get detention and 50% more likely to get suspended from school? Your assumption that minority youth are more prone to the sorts of trouble that gets them disciplined is exactly the problem. I'm arguing that there isn't enough information to prove racism is present. I'm not saying racism isn't present, but that there isn't enough information to prove it is. I have made no assumptions about the behaviors of minority youth. Why are you arguing against making sure we know what the problem actually is before bringing about policy to correct it? I simply do not believe that minority youth misbehave more frequently than whites in the same schools. That pernicious stereotyping is what allows teachers and principals to get away with calling a white kid's parents and the police for the black kid for the same offence. And, if that's what happens, that certainly is proof of racism, regardless of what you simply believe.

Kirata -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/22/2014 1:46:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Two ways it can be covert: 1) pretending the numbers are meaningless, and 2) accepting there is a problem but not implementing solutions. I'm not directing this at you, I'm just picking up on the subject of covert racism... "Covert racism" present a peculiar problem because you can't see it. You can only infer it from effects. This creates an awkward situation. Citing disparate effect as evidence of racism is equivalent to saying, "I can't see it, but I know it's there." That wouldn't survive for a minute in a religion thread. Some studies bend so far over backward to find racism in the data that they contradict themselves. For example, from the study I linked previously: There is no evidence of blacks being more disruptive in the classroom: What is especially clear is that neither this nor any previously published research studying differential discipline and rates of behavior by race (McCarthy and Hoge, 1987; McFadden et al., 1992; Shaw and Braden, 1990) has found any evidence that the higher rates of discipline received by African-American students are due to more serious or more *disruptive behavior. Except from the same study, there is: Townsend (2000) suggests that many teachers, especially those of European-American background, may be unfamiliar and even uncomfortable with the more active and physical* style of communication that characterizes African-American adolescents. The *impassioned and emotive* manner popular among young African-Americans... When did active, physical, impassioned emotional outbursts cease to be disruptive behavior in a classroom? And what in Wonderland is "racist" about viewing them as such? Racism is a serious enough issue without seeing it where it isn't, and I am deeply suspicious of this "covert racism" meme. K.

Owner59 -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/22/2014 1:58:39 PM)
Just read a study that said the disabled dis-proportionality suffer segregation,punishments and expulsions from school. This rings true for me from my memory of how handi-caped and special needs kids were targeted for abuse in Glen Ridge,where I went to school. Kids can be viscous to the odd man out(or woman).

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/24/2014 7:34:00 AM)
quote: What is especially clear is that neither this nor any previously published research studying differential discipline and rates of behavior by race (McCarthy and Hoge, 1987; McFadden et al., 1992; Shaw and Braden, 1990) has found any evidence that the higher rates of discipline received by African-American students are due to more serious or more disruptive behavior. Except from the same study, there is: Townsend (2000) suggests that many teachers, especially those of European-American background, may be unfamiliar and even uncomfortable with the more active and physical style of communication that characterizes African-American adolescents. The impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans... When did active, physical, impassioned emotional outbursts cease to be disruptive behavior in a classroom? And what in Wonderland is "racist" about viewing them as such? Racism is a serious enough issue without seeing it where it isn't, and I am deeply suspicious of this "covert racism" meme. Okay, your suspicion is understandable. However, please notice that you translated impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans into emotional outbursts Therein lies a problem of perception that may be shared by European-American (white) teachers that may be an attribute of covert racism. In my experience "emotional outbursts" seldom if ever occurred when as a teacher I had the class focused and down to the business at hand. There was raucous verbal behavior between classes in the halls and at the start of the hour as the kids entered the classroom and settled into their seats. I did observe open expressions of disdain for ineffective teaching. But those were only a few cases and not a valid sample set. (I was observing as Dept. Chair) I think there is a case to be made that some white teachers, reared in suburbia and college educated, carry attitudes about black children they picked up from media reports of and dramatic TV portrayals about ghetto crime and drug dealing, and those attitudes lead to teacher overreaction to incidents in the halls and classrooms. (Gangsta Rap certainly doesn't help) We always stepped in to stop rare fights in the hallway. But too often some teacher would try to assert unneeded authority over loud and boisterous behavior with passing students. This would lead to an unpleasant student reaction. This sequence would lead to a referral to Administrators, etc. So yeah, I think some white teachers carry negative prejudices toward black students and that leads to unnecessary provocations. That's what I mean by covert racism. The numbers in the data collection are not meaningless. I am glad to see there are studies to support the need for dealing with the issue.

Kirata -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/24/2014 3:33:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Townsend (2000) suggests that many teachers, especially those of European-American background, may be unfamiliar and even uncomfortable with the more active and physical style of communication that characterizes African-American adolescents. The impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans... When did active, physical, impassioned emotional outbursts cease to be disruptive behavior in a classroom? And what in Wonderland is "racist" about viewing them as such? Racism is a serious enough issue without seeing it where it isn't, and I am deeply suspicious of this "covert racism" meme. please notice that you translated impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans into emotional outbursts Therein lies a problem of perception that may be shared by European-American (white) teachers that may be an attribute of covert racism. What I notice is that trimming the words "active" and "physical" from what I said misrepresents what I'm alleged to have "translated". Put the rabbit back in your hat. What precisely is "racist" about considering outbreaks of active, physical, impassioned and emotive behavior to be disruptive in a classroom? K.

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/25/2014 10:43:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Townsend (2000) suggests that many teachers, especially those of European-American background, may be unfamiliar and even uncomfortable with the more active and physical style of communication that characterizes African-American adolescents. The impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans... When did active, physical, impassioned emotional outbursts cease to be disruptive behavior in a classroom? And what in Wonderland is "racist" about viewing them as such? Racism is a serious enough issue without seeing it where it isn't, and I am deeply suspicious of this "covert racism" meme. please notice that you translated impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans into emotional outbursts Therein lies a problem of perception that may be shared by European-American (white) teachers that may be an attribute of covert racism. What I notice is that trimming the words "active" and "physical" from what I said misrepresents what I'm alleged to have "translated". Put the rabbit back in your hat. What precisely is "racist" about considering outbreaks of active, physical, impassioned and emotive behavior to be disruptive in a classroom? K. I did not trim "active" and "physical" deliberately to alter your point. Apologies on that. The research from Townsend did not declare the behavior was disruptive to the lesson. My observation has been that such behavior is much more common passing to class, and at the start or end of class. Furthermore, the earlier studies you cited failed to find "that the higher rates of discipline received by African-American students are due to more serious or more disruptive behavior." My point is that we all carry prejudices, intentionally or not, overtly or not. Many white teachers carry prejudices against black students. Some are afraid of blacks. Let me add another conflicting point that may account for the over-reaction by white teachers: regard for authority. Teachers often think their authority should be unquestioned simply due to their position in the front of the classroom whereas many black students encounter authority with a racial chip on their shoulder. I observed this particularly among black girls raised in a strong matriarchy. Black female teachers do not encounter the same problem, I noticed. They are treated as matriarchs, respected and obeyed quickly. In any successful business the sales approach and product are tailored to the potential customer. I think it would be helpful if white teachers were trained to 'sell' to black children. I believe the schools can go a long way to solving the problem by training white teachers to give respect in order to gain respect and to be less heavy handed in asserting their authority.

Kirata -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/25/2014 11:59:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Let me add another conflicting point that may account for the over-reaction by white teachers: regard for authority. Teachers often think their authority should be unquestioned simply due to their position in the front of the classroom whereas many black students encounter authority with a racial chip on their shoulder. I observed this particularly among black girls raised in a strong matriarchy. Black female teachers do not encounter the same problem, I noticed. They are treated as matriarchs, respected and obeyed quickly. Well there's the problem then. Black attitudes toward authority. From which we are supposed to conclude that telling a disruptive student to sit down and be quiet is "covert racism" if the kid happens to be black? Seriously? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML In any successful business the sales approach and product are tailored to the potential customer. I think it would be helpful if white teachers were trained to 'sell' to black children. Somehow I think it would be better to "sell" them on respecting teachers and class decorum instead. Because there's a real world out there, and it is not full of people who are willing to "respect" chippy attitudes toward authority. K.

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/26/2014 8:29:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Let me add another conflicting point that may account for the over-reaction by white teachers: regard for authority. Teachers often think their authority should be unquestioned simply due to their position in the front of the classroom whereas many black students encounter authority with a racial chip on their shoulder. I observed this particularly among black girls raised in a strong matriarchy. Black female teachers do not encounter the same problem, I noticed. They are treated as matriarchs, respected and obeyed quickly. Well there's the problem then. Black attitudes toward authority. From which we are supposed to conclude that telling a disruptive student to sit down and be quiet is "covert racism" if the kid happens to be black? Seriously? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML In any successful business the sales approach and product are tailored to the potential customer. I think it would be helpful if white teachers were trained to 'sell' to black children. Somehow I think it would be better to "sell" them on respecting teachers and class decorum instead. Because there's a real world out there, and it is not full of people who are willing to "respect" chippy attitudes toward authority. K. Again you ignore the research that failed to find the disciplined behavior disruptive. It is research that you provided, not me. We cannot deny that the target purchaser has a mind set that has developed out of tales of slavery, Jim Crow laws, and suspicion of continuing discrimination. If we used advertisements from the 1950s to sell products to more liberated women today our sales campaign would be laughable. A laudable maxim is: Teach the child; he will learn the subject matter. There seem to be conflicting views about the exercise of teacher authority. Some wish for a return to the strict pedagogue while others claim that posture stifles the freedom to learn and develop to independent adulthood. Do you remember Nurse Rachet from the film "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?" What a stifling institutional bitch she was. That film came out during my teaching tenure. While it was set in a mental hospital and portrayed rebellion against those institutional walls it struck me that there was a parallel to be drawn to our public educational institutions. Nurse Rachet is representative of a destructive way to exercise authority. We can teach respect for authority by giving respect to students. The data suggests we have a problem of disproportionate discipline. The studies show that the disciplined behavior was not disruptive. Teacher over-reaction is a reasonable conclusion and a correctable behavior. My observation is that children respond better to kindness than to sternness. Perhaps you have an untried way to teach respect for authority you can share with us.

Kirata -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/26/2014 11:31:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Again you ignore the research that failed to find the disciplined behavior disruptive. I can hardly be accused of ignoring something that I myself posted. In fact, I addressed it directly: Some studies bend so far over backward to find racism in the data that they contradict themselves. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/upfiles/235229/508804FA82124D78A85FE410D8D7D525.jpg[/image] I happen to be of the view that active, physical, impassioned and emotive behavior is disruptive in a classroom, and from the study's own findings these are the types of behaviors that predominantly earn black students suspension. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML We cannot deny that the target purchaser has a mind set that has developed out of tales of slavery... Do you remember Nurse Rachet The "target purchaser." Heh. You have both a droll educational philosophy and a talent for slander. Teachers that try to maintain decorum in their classrooms can now be associated with the evil Nurse Rachet. And, of course, that's no way to sell ~~used cars~~ education. There remains only to advise people not to adjust their television set. K.

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/26/2014 4:26:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Again you ignore the research that failed to find the disciplined behavior disruptive. I can hardly be accused of ignoring something that I myself posted. In fact, I addressed it directly: Some studies bend so far over backward to find racism in the data that they contradict themselves. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/upfiles/235229/508804FA82124D78A85FE410D8D7D525.jpg[/image] I happen to be of the view that active, physical, impassioned and emotive behavior is disruptive in a classroom, and from the study's own findings these are the types of behaviors that predominantly earn black students suspension. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML We cannot deny that the target purchaser has a mind set that has developed out of tales of slavery... Do you remember Nurse Rachet The "target purchaser." Heh. You have both a droll educational philosophy and a talent for slander. Teachers that try to maintain decorum in their classrooms can now be associated with the evil Nurse Rachet. And, of course, that's no way to sell ~~used cars~~ education. There remains only to advise people not to adjust their television set. K. Look closely. Only one of the categories clearly and unambiguously specify classroom activity. All the others can happen anywhere on campus. You presume that all offenses are classroom disturbances when there is no evidence for it. The teacher is a leader in the classroom and elsewhere on campus. Substitute the word Leader for Authority. How does a leader earn respect? Not simply by rank. Doesn't happen that way in any other institution. Leaders have to earn respect. American schools, by the data, are failing as leaders of black children. The schools need to abandon their 19th Century mode of relating to kids. There are various ways to maintain decorum in the classroom. Most importantly the establishment of caring relationships. Nurse Rachet is the model for the failed martinet. No teacher should strive to emulate that model. As a strategy it sucks.

Kirata -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/26/2014 5:57:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML American schools, by the data, are failing as leaders of black children. The schools need to abandon their 19th Century mode of relating to kids. Yeah, that must be the problem. K.

ForgetToRemember -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 12:37:43 AM)
Well, what I see here is a lot of disagreement over data - and that's because this data is just the start of the discussion. From a scientific point of view, this is what is going on... The article is taking an Observation and going directly to Conclusion. This is a classic mistake made by those who are not scientifically minded. The correct process of the Scientific Method is: Observation ---> Hypothesis ---> Test Hypothesis (Experiments, more or deeper data collection) ---> Examine Results ---> Accept or Reject or Redefine Hypothesis. Rinse and Repeat as much as possible...CONCLUSION. I will try to be useful and suggest the proper way to use this data: =========================================================================================================================================================================================== First off, let me state that this is actually a GREAT resource (Civil Rights Data Collection). I used that before this message, and will comment on that later. So for my methodology... 1.) Observation: Already done! We have the data already showing that more minorities are disciplined in a statistically significant amount. 2.) Hypothesis: Minorities are disciplined more often due to INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM (or insert your specific idea here). 3.) Test Hypothesis (Experiment/ Deeper data collection): For the hypothesis of institutionalized racism, we would do a broad collection of deeper data (samples from all states, from preschool, k-6, high school). That would mean that we have a sample that is representative of the whole population of the US and thus could do statistical analysis of it. The main point here is to define the new tests that need to be done (the best measure of actual racist acts - perhaps controlling for socioeconomic status of the student?). 4.) Analyze results: Look for any outliers, any problems with data collection, trends, quirks, notes etc. Depending on the results, we may want to accept our hypothesis, reject it or redefine it. 5.) Do more experiments if warranted (a result other than an obvious 'NO'). In this case, we may want to follow up with interviews of the people involved with the discipline (both for minorities and whites). 6.) Rinse and repeat as much as possible. 7.) Draw an evidence based conclusion: Note any interesting facts found during the process (or what you would like to change, what new observations you had that may warrant new hypotheses and testing). =========================================================================================================================================================================================== So as I said before, I went to the ed.gov website and checked the data for my state. I live in Maine, and the population is about 94% white. However, the results for expulsion showed absolutely no bias based on color of skin (for preschoolers, which is what the original article was about). I haven't looked through every single category, but for non-disabled discipline...there was no disproportionate expulsion for students of color compared to whites. I can see some examples of 'low number percentages' occurring though. Such as a school that only has 20 black students, but 600 white students (something you might find in Maine). If the school suspends 2 of those black students and 20 white students, the statistic you can derive from that is, "Schools are still racist - as black students are suspended 3 times more than whites"...however we can see that getting 2 bad students is not unreasonable. The variation could easily be due to other factors besides race. Anyways, I hope that we recognize the difference between an Observation (or data) and a Conclusion. Observations and data are great - for furthering the scientific method. They are not supposed to be used to draw conclusions on.

DesideriScuri -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 6:41:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ForgetToRemember Anyways, I hope that we recognize the difference between an Observation (or data) and a Conclusion. Observations and data are great - for furthering the scientific method. They are not supposed to be used to draw conclusions on. Great post! This is pretty much what I've been saying, but nowhere near as eloquently.

MercTech -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 8:57:02 AM)
Labeling a cultural clash as "racism" is all too easy to do. Take a kid that has been hearing "f---" bombs from the time he has been learning to speak and put him in a mainstream environment and he will be seen as disruptive no matter whether he has a congenital suntan or not. Showing respect for authority figures is a learned trait as is disrespect for authority. Skin color doesn't make a thug but thug culture does.

kdsub -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 9:13:12 AM)
This just caught my eye... I wonder however what the use is in collecting data if eventually conclusions are not made? This is the purpose in collecting data to be able to analyze... make conclusions... and plan remedies or actions based on the conclusions. Collecting data for data sake would have no reason. I do understand when the conclusions are made and what conclusions are arrived at are debatable but gathering information has only one purpose...to make conclusions. Butch

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 11:34:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: ForgetToRemember Anyways, I hope that we recognize the difference between an Observation (or data) and a Conclusion. Observations and data are great - for furthering the scientific method. They are not supposed to be used to draw conclusions on. Great post! This is pretty much what I've been saying, but nowhere near as eloquently. FTR wrongly suggests no studies have been done on disparate discipline. The following was posted by Kirata in #42: quote: There is no evidence of blacks being more disruptive in the classroom: What is especially clear is that neither this nor any previously published research studying differential discipline and rates of behavior by race (McCarthy and Hoge, 1987; McFadden et al., 1992; Shaw and Braden, 1990) has found any evidence that the higher rates of discipline on African-American students are due to more serious or more disruptive behavior. Except from the same study, there is: Townsend (2000) suggests that many teachers, especially those of European-American background, may be unfamiliar and even uncomfortable with the more active and physical style of communication that characterizes African-American adolescents. The impassioned and emotive manner popular among young African-Americans... Kirata went on in post #49 to post a study of behavior factors that predict expulsion of whites vs blacks and suggested that researchers lean over backward to interpret racial bias in that data. I responded with the observation that only one of the categories unambiguously pertained to classroom behavior. All the rest could have taken place and probably did take place elsewhere on campus. It is my contention that both black students and white teachers bring racial baggage to the classroom and the white teachers are poorly trained in classroom management or the exercise of their roles as leaders elsewhere on campus. The problem is compounded by a recent study that 40% of American infants lack a strong, secure bonding with their parents. That might explain the high rate of expulsions from day school (FFS) It is the responsibility of schools and teachers to take children as they are and help them progress. We need to stop blaming the students. And we sure as hell do no need lectures on the scientific method on this board. TYVM!

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 11:55:30 AM)
NM double post . . . my bad [:(]

vincentML -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 12:03:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Labeling a cultural clash as "racism" is all too easy to do. Take a kid that has been hearing "f---" bombs from the time he has been learning to speak and put him in a mainstream environment and he will be seen as disruptive no matter whether he has a congenital suntan or not. Showing respect for authority figures is a learned trait as is disrespect for authority. Skin color doesn't make a thug but thug culture does. You make some good points, Merc. But I disagree about teaching respect for authority. America was born from revolution. Our freedoms were won and held by protest and confrontation. Sex, drugs, rock ‘n roll, punk, hip hop, and rap music are all anti-authoritarian and anti-conformist expressions in our art. Large numbers of Americans openly despise the president, congress and other politicians. We denigrate federal agencies and corporations alike. And most of us have probably worked for a boss who was an idiot. Isn’t disrespect for authority an American virtue? Isn’t it more important to respect competence than authority? Why should we teach our children what we do not practice as adults?

MercTech -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 1:58:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Labeling a cultural clash as "racism" is all too easy to do. Take a kid that has been hearing "f---" bombs from the time he has been learning to speak and put him in a mainstream environment and he will be seen as disruptive no matter whether he has a congenital suntan or not. Showing respect for authority figures is a learned trait as is disrespect for authority. Skin color doesn't make a thug but thug culture does. You make some good points, Merc. But I disagree about teaching respect for authority. America was born from revolution. Our freedoms were won and held by protest and confrontation. Sex, drugs, rock ‘n roll, punk, hip hop, and rap music are all anti-authoritarian and anti-conformist expressions in our art. Large numbers of Americans openly despise the president, congress and other politicians. We denigrate federal agencies and corporations alike. And most of us have probably worked for a boss who was an idiot. Isn’t disrespect for authority an American virtue? Isn’t it more important to respect competence than authority? Why should we teach our children what we do not practice as adults? I see disrespect for authority as different from disagreement with authority. I don't agree with a huge part of what the federal government has done. That doesn't mean I disrespect the federal government by telling the local cops where they can stuff something vile. It is a pattern of disrespect for anyone outside themselves that becomes a problem. Perhaps explanation by example would work better. E-3 seaman telling her LPO that "What I do and where I go is none of your business." Um, in uniform, during working hours and on duty.. it certainly was my business. At a school function assisting in kiddie crowd control. Telling a group of kids to move on out the the door to the auditorium and let other in being told, "You ain't the boss of me and I don't have to listen to anything you say." The teenage kid screaming the park ranger was a racist at the top of his lungs because the ranger would not let him and his buds come into the park entrance. The actual situation was that there was a line of cars waiting until it was safe to enter as there was a vehicle on fire in the parking lot. This is the type of disrespect for authority I see as a learned trait. My own experience as a kid was being taught to follow the instructions of those in authority for the situation. And take it to my parent if I was told something that didn't seem right to me. (And that happened more than once.)

DesideriScuri -> RE: American Schools Still Racist? (3/30/2014 4:11:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub This just caught my eye... I wonder however what the use is in collecting data if eventually conclusions are not made? This is the purpose in collecting data to be able to analyze... make conclusions... and plan remedies or actions based on the conclusions. Collecting data for data sake would have no reason. I do understand when the conclusions are made and what conclusions are arrived at are debatable but gathering information has only one purpose...to make conclusions. Butch Shouldn't causation be treated, rather than simply treating correlation?

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