RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive

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MisterP61 -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 12:37:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbibear Leaving my personal situation aside, the issue of pushy vs assertive is, I think, a challenge for submissives who are looking for dominants. Tone certainly is important as frunandsins points out. I guess I see it as comparable to giving someone a menu in a fine dining establishment. The menu always comes with detailed information from the server so that the guest is able to make an informed decision about what items they want to enjoy that visit. Anyone can spit out a list of hard limits, and that is an important thing to include, but nuance is required as well. What are the soft limits? What are the ways a sub could be lead safely up against those soft limits and helped to expand their horizons and grow? Anyone can spill forth a list of fantasies or a history of their favorite scenes with past dominants, but what the dominant who you are seeking needs to know is what you enjoy and why you enjoy it. The dominant needs to know what about these behaviors make your mind trigger pleasure, how you understand them as acts of submission. So instead of laying out just a scene idea about being expected to edge yourself and then being told when to orgasm, a submissive needs to talk about what elements of submission they are getting out of it. Is it objectification? Obedience? Loss of autonomy? How is this action fulfilling the submissive's need to please the dominant? Sure it is good to give them the menu, but the details about the menu items, how they work and why, that is what makes it assertive rather than pushy, I think. Once the dominant has all the facts in hand, and is armed with the details of how the submissive's brain is working, then the dominant is able to lead, control and dominate from a position of informed power. Giving up the knowledge of how you think and what drives your submission and sexuality is the first step in the power exchange- IMHO. It is a step of trust. In my little world, dominants do not take power, submissives give it away. Dominants are then left with the responsibility to use it judiciously in leading the couple or group or family or den towards growth and happiness. Pushy would be just talking about all the things you want the dominant to do to you. And really, at that point, what you are looking for is a top more than a dominant, because you have not actually given up any power in the first place. IMHO YMMV etc etc First off, I would like to mention how refreshing it is to have a new person join us on this site who actually has a great thought process (you do get bonus points from Me because of your shirt BTW[:D]). You made a pretty good distinction between the two. I don't necessarily agree with it all. I believe a good Dominant will invoke the submissive to want to give up their power and submissiveness (I have seen My wife do this time and time again). I mean are you really going to write to every Dominant on here to tell them what you like and what being a submissive means to you? I do not get that "troll" vibe from you like I do with quite a few of the newcomers. Someone who is pushy, IMO, is those ones who come at a Dominant in a way that is abrasive, and if they don't like it they can fuck themselves. Someone who is assertive will do, as you say, tell the person whom they are interested in, this is what I like, this is what I will not try, and this is what I might try with the right person and here is why and what it does for me to serve You, the Dominant. Very well articulated responses and well thought out thoughts you present. I do not think you will have much issue with finding what you want. Best of luck to you with your friend. [:D]

crazyml -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 12:49:15 PM)
First, I hope you hang around and contribute to more threads. I think your idea of the distinction is pretty close to mine, but as jeff said, I think talking about the things you want to do doesn't make it pushy - Although I saw you said "JUST talking about the things you want the dominant to do" and yeah, that would certainly feel really self centred, if not pushy. I would say, that I'm far more attracted to feisty assertive sub types, even ones that can get a little pushy - Where's the fun of putting someone in their place if they're already there? = Although having to do that constantly would become a bit of a chore. One of the problems I think many have in early interactions is that they tend to define themselves by a shopping list, or find themselves defined that way by someone else. It all becomes a little bit transactional. It also creates a bizarre situation where I know lots of dirty dirty things about a sub, before I even know how she takes her coffee. I know you know this (that's pretty evident) but there is a tendency for people in the early stages of getting to know eachother on a kinky web site to focus almost exclusively on the kink list... Since I'm actually looking for someone I might actually enjoy spending nilla time with there are plenty of non-kinky views and preferences I'm interested in learning about. So while, yeah, there are some kinks/preferences/desires I'd want to know about early (either because they're big plusses or big no-nos), most of what I need to know is out there in the nilla space rather than kinkland.

FieryOpal -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 12:58:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbibear <snip> He and I shared a concern that we might have an existing interpersonal dynamic that could interfere with establishing as new D/s dynamic but we both feel it is worth trying it out to see what happens.... Can you elaborate any further on what this "existing interpersonal dynamic" is which "could interfere" with you and your ex-lover (i.e., "vanilla playmate" long ago) reconnecting? If he is already involved with somebody else and they don't have an open arrangement, this is not cool. You would be inserting yourself into a pre-existing dynamic. This has nothing to do with being a pushy sub -- It is being pushy, in effect, throwing yourself at someone, which smacks of desperation. Sorry to rain on your parade, if that indeed is the case. This might not be relevant to your situation, but did the two of you part on good terms? I ask because I have a lesbian friend who used to be poly. Her Domme wanted for them to be mono, and they ended up breaking up more than 3 years ago. My friend later realized she had made a big mistake. When they reconnected on line after making up, things seemed fine, as if all was forgiven. For the next 3 weeks, her former Domme kept throwing it back in her face how this sub had wronged her and that it would take a lot before this Domme could ever trust her again. Needless to say, my friend decided it wasn't worth it to try to rekindle their relationship and to not subject herself to this kind of emotional blackmail. The fact that you have a history with this man can be either positive or negative, and you know him best. Bon chance.

Domnotlooking -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 1:13:40 PM)
We work with the concept of docility. I want to know all about what she wants and needs and I really like to see her happy. But I also want her to to accept that I'm driving things and she's to accept that, trust that, serve that, derive pleasure from that. I don't bargain and I don't keep score. I do give empathy and create the framework for her to obey and be in my groove. The more she gives that control over to me, the more pleasantly docile she feels -and very happily, vice versa.

FightingChains -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 6:08:02 PM)
-FR I've faced this problem myself. As a bottom/submissive, how much should I say before it seems I'm dictating what's going on? I've had to learn myself that if I'm not vocal, it's not going to happen, because my partner cares and is cautious. Don't be afraid to say things as they are, but also remember that you want them to make a dominant move, to feel in control. So maybe give it a chance, if they don't ask then volunteer. Being assertive isn't not submissive: you need to state what you need, or anything that's going to happen is going to go in a direction you don't like, and the dynamic won't work, and then you won't be the dominant's submissive anyway. Just be mindful you want them to do what they want, so you're basically outlining, "I need xyz, do you want to hit those points? My boundaries are ABC, are you happy to play within them? Ok? Go for it!" You provide them the lines that cannot be crossed (if you have them) before it becomes too much for you and you'd need to leave, and you also provide them the spots of need in your life that, if not hit, would leave you feeling depressed, and make the relationship or play or whatever you're doing counterproductive and ruin your life. I think of it as outlining the boundaries they can play in, and then they do whatever the heck they line within those guidelines. Just state it as it is, be respectful, discuss. In my eyes, this is a consensual power change, and that requires both parties to be open and honest about what they want and need. And then the dominant/top can go full throttle controlling you without the risk, and without as many worries as they might have. But hey, that's just my opinion.

frunandsins -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/22/2014 10:44:03 PM)
quote: So instead of laying out just a scene idea about being expected to edge yourself and then being told when to orgasm, a submissive needs to talk about what elements of submission they are getting out of it. Is it objectification? Obedience? Loss of autonomy? How is this action fulfilling the submissive's need to please the dominant? What you're describing stems from the assumption that the submissive has done a lot of introspection and self-examination. Without that, s/he cannot write out these things - they wouldn't know where to start. In my experience with subs, only a small percent of them have this level of insight, and they are usually the more experienced ones. I typically have to drag it out of them through the interviewing process. I have no evidence, but I also suspect that many Doms don't know why certain things excite them or works for them, either. I am still discovering those areas of my sexual psyche and this is why the BDSM experience is rewarding to me. So, being assertive, as with being confident, requires a lot of emotional maturity. That is why if someone can present to me evidence of this maturity, it will save me a lot of work in trying to discover whether they have it or not. This is not to say that those who cannot furnish me with a detailed list of the raison d'etre of their kinks are not emotionally mature, of course (A indicates B =/= Not-A indicates Not-B). I have encountered pushy subs before, as well as assertive subs. I will be honest and admit that before I had met both types, I didn't realize that there is that difference. To provide context, the pushy sub contacted me (over on the other side of collarme) and we began chatting a bit. He offered to go on cam to show me his body, so I said ok. Once he was on cam, he then proceeded to bring out the toys he had, without being told to, and then basically started to "ask permission" to do things to himself without prompting or direction. I was just a prop in his little fantasy. So I stopped him after a couple minutes of this and told him that we were not compatible. In contrast, I have met a couple assertive subs who had no problems articulating their limits and why, while remaining completely respectful and deferential. One of them would not accept spanking, and explained that it was because of a really bad master he had before for a few years. He said he might eventually take it again but not right now. I said that'd be a deal breaker and he gracefully accepted that and ended our chatting amicably. That said, different Masters and Mistresses will have their own thresholds for pushy vs assertive. For a submissive, it is always a small risk that the assertive level might be a mismatch. But then, if the submissive is assertive and knows that the kind of Dom/Domme s/he seeks is the type who can accept his/her level of assertiveness, then there is nothing to lose to start the encounter at that level - those who matter won't care and those who care won't matter. :-D

sunshinemiss -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 4:04:28 AM)
Hello Subi Bear, It's great you stated what you wanted and where your head is. That's a wonderful thing! Yay you! And it's also great that he's given you such positive feedback. I want to remind you though... words are cheap. Let's see what this fellow DOES. Don't get lulled into pretty words. I hope he has sense enough to back them up with action. Please keep us apprised. I'll be over here crossing my fingers for you. [:)]

subbibear -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 6:57:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal quote: ORIGINAL: subbibear <snip> He and I shared a concern that we might have an existing interpersonal dynamic that could interfere with establishing as new D/s dynamic but we both feel it is worth trying it out to see what happens.... Can you elaborate any further on what this "existing interpersonal dynamic" is which "could interfere" with you and your ex-lover (i.e., "vanilla playmate" long ago) reconnecting? If he is already involved with somebody else and they don't have an open arrangement, this is not cool. You would be inserting yourself into a pre-existing dynamic. This has nothing to do with being a pushy sub -- It is being pushy, in effect, throwing yourself at someone, which smacks of desperation. Sorry to rain on your parade, if that indeed is the case. This might not be relevant to your situation, but did the two of you part on good terms? The fact that you have a history with this man can be either positive or negative, and you know him best. Bon chance. I can elaborate. He and I met in 1983 and from then through 1994 were friends with occasional benefits. From 1995 through 2010 we saw and heard nothing from each other. In 2010 he came with me to return to the church where I had been sexually abused as part of a support group of friends. We had no contact from then until just the past few days. As far as I know he is not involved with anyone else. He could be deceiving me, though that would be against his character. Our interpersonal dynamic that we both were referring to is one of equals, peers, friends, one that might not easily transform into a D/s 24/7 dynamic. It is our concern that we not damage our capacity to remain friends should any steps we take towards a power exchange dynamic run into conflict with this existing interpersonal dynamic. And actually we talked about this very thing last night. And it seems we are in agreement that we both want whatever power exchange dynamic we build together to include some time that is vanilla-ish, companion-ish, lets just hang out and watch a movie sort of time. And we were both quite happy to hear the other say this- that neither of us is living in lotus-land about a 24/7 scene. I hope this answers your question?

FieryOpal -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 7:30:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbibear I can elaborate. He and I met in 1983 and from then through 1994 were friends with occasional benefits. From 1995 through 2010 we saw and heard nothing from each other. In 2010 he came with me to return to the church where I had been sexually abused as part of a support group of friends. We had no contact from then until just the past few days. As far as I know he is not involved with anyone else. He could be deceiving me, though that would be against his character. Our interpersonal dynamic that we both were referring to is one of equals, peers, friends, one that might not easily transform into a D/s 24/7 dynamic. It is our concern that we not damage our capacity to remain friends should any steps we take towards a power exchange dynamic run into conflict with this existing interpersonal dynamic. And actually we talked about this very thing last night. And it seems we are in agreement that we both want whatever power exchange dynamic we build together to include some time that is vanilla-ish, companion-ish, lets just hang out and watch a movie sort of time. And we were both quite happy to hear the other say this- that neither of us is living in lotus-land about a 24/7 scene. I hope this answers your question? Thanks for clarifying that rather cryptic reference. I didn't realize your friendship was as close as you describe. If you are on relatively equal footing with your friend, then I see no reason why you had second thoughts about whether your interactions wouldn't appear "subbly" enough. After all, neither of you is officially involved in a D/s dynamic, unless there is a wide gap in your social standing or you would normally show him deference in some capacity or another (e.g. his holding an office or being deacon of your church). From what you've described, and I appreciate your openness, you are equals. Perhaps some nervousness on your part or fear of rejection? He may be feeling something along those lines, as you both move forward in redefining your relationship together. Under the circumstances, I would only second-guess your level of forwardness if his interest isn't equally reciprocated, and so far it looks promising.

subbibear -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 9:52:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal Perhaps some nervousness on your part or fear of rejection? Hammer, meet nail head.

DesFIP -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 4:19:42 PM)
I think the difference between the two is entirely in the eye of the beholder. And had this guy decided that by you being honest about your feelings and desires, that thus you were 'pushy', then you would have learned that you aren't compatible with him. Because the person you are needs to be honest about how you feel, needs a relationship where open sharing is encouraged. And that anyone who would feel this makes you pushy isn't someone you could be happy with. Because long term, you are not going to be able to stifle yourself and pretend to be someone else.

subbibear -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 5:24:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I think the difference between the two is entirely in the eye of the beholder. And had this guy decided that by you being honest about your feelings and desires, that thus you were 'pushy', then you would have learned that you aren't compatible with him. Because the person you are needs to be honest about how you feel, needs a relationship where open sharing is encouraged. And that anyone who would feel this makes you pushy isn't someone you could be happy with. Because long term, you are not going to be able to stifle yourself and pretend to be someone else. A most excellent and insightful point. Thank you.

littlewonder -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 5:57:04 PM)
My concern with these types of situations is that one ends up falling in love or deeper while the other still wants to live by the agreement and just wants it to be a friendship basis type thing. This ends up with one or more parties being hurt when the relationship doesn't stay the same as it always has been. Just something to keep in mind when you move into this with this friend of yours.

subbibear -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 6:41:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder My concern with these types of situations is that one ends up falling in love or deeper while the other still wants to live by the agreement and just wants it to be a friendship basis type thing. This ends up with one or more parties being hurt when the relationship doesn't stay the same as it always has been. Just something to keep in mind when you move into this with this friend of yours. I agree that is an issue, but I don't want my relationship issues to derail the pushy vs assertive discussion here. I have started a new thread for the discussion of this potential relationship and invite all comments and questions to be directed to this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4667627/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4667627 Thanks.

kalikshama -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/23/2014 7:06:48 PM)
The trick is to assert yourself submissively [sm=angel.gif] Not having read your email, I can't tell what you did, but he didn't seem to interpret it as pushy. I don't believe the simple act of articulating one's needs is pushy.

joshua69 -> RE: Pushy Bottom vs Assertive Submissive (3/25/2014 12:39:07 AM)
subbibear, I ‘m an assertive submissive. It’s a choice I had to make long ago and there was no choice to be made. I realized that I had to be myself and had to be with people who appreciated that quality. It wouldn’t work any other way. It sounds to me like you did the same thing and if it works out or not, you have kept yourself you. Score. Now go for the hat trick! Besides, being an assertive submissive is cool.

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