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RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 11:53:30 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
A misinterpretation of a religion does not condemn that religion.





The moment religion results in conflict with others, I feel I have a right to condemn. Sorry, but if people cannot co-exist, then they have a problem. And if they are using their religion as a way to self-define themselves as different, and most people follow that then this does not constitute a "misinterpretation".

What about the Spanish Inquisition was a "misinterpretation" by a few?? It was an institutionally sanctioned activity. How could one not blame religion for that??

If you put it in context this was part of the corruption of the Church which led to the reformation.
Even the Catholic church acknowledged that it was wrong.
Even a hijacking of the religion by those who have warped it's meaning does not mean they
actually represent that religion.
For example today, which is what counts, the "Islamic fundamentalists" are, in my opinion are
hijacking Islam in much the same manor.

BTW my branch of Christianity repudiated the inquisition centuries ago.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/28/2014 11:59:36 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 12:29:20 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

None of the Islamics I knew in school had a real understanding of separation of church and state


In your experience, do you think the reverse is true?

That most Americans have trouble accepting that church and state are essentially one in Muslim/Arab countries?

I find that to be true...

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 12:44:32 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If you put it in context this was part of the corruption of the Church which led to the reformation.
Even the Catholic church acknowledged that it was wrong.
Even a hijacking of the religion by those who have warped it's meaning does not mean they
actually represent that religion.
For example today, which is what counts, the "Islamic fundamentalists" are, in my opinion are
hijacking Islam in much the same manor.

BTW my branch of Christianity repudiated the inquisition centuries ago.


I see. So apologizing after the fact for genocide makes everything okay.

The fundamental point is that belonging to different religions causes people to view each other as different. There is only one human species. I disagree with anything that repeatedly throughout history causes unnecessary division, strife and conflict. An apology after the fact is simply insufficient given the gravity of things liked forced conversions/genocide. Just because a religion believes in some variation of "sin is forgiven" should not be misconstrued as an excuse to do whatever one wants to others with complete disregard for others' rights to their own religion and to exist. I'm not sure "oops, sorry about that" really counts as an honest acknowledgment of the horrors. Not to mention it does ZERO for promoting tolerance in the future since "oops, sorry about that" is NOT, in fact, a promise to avoid the same in the future.

_____________________________

~ ftp

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RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 1:37:44 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
What is it that you think explains human conflicts? Race/ethnicity alone does not account for all human conflicts. Even geo-political definitions cannot account for all human conflicts. Religion is an absolute factor - and a large one at that. And I am hard pressed to think of other MAJOR contributing factors.


Stuff, in a world with limited resources and covered with human beings we tend to fight over stuff.

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RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 1:39:48 PM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

None of the Islamics I knew in school had a real understanding of separation of church and state


In your experience, do you think the reverse is true?

That most Americans have trouble accepting that church and state are essentially one in Muslim/Arab countries?

I find that to be true...


That's why I brought up the subject. So few in the U.S. know much about other cultures and have a huge case of hubris thinking the customs of their area are supposed to be universal laws.

I'm in favor of states' rights. And that has nothing to do with historical racism but the fact that ordinances that are right and proper for a crowded Manhattan may be invasive, ridiculous, and unacceptable for a rural county in Wyoming. A difference in opinion that big government power should trickle up for the common weal and not that local power should be a trickle down license from monolithic bureaucracy.

I think there is one constant between cultures worldwide; the average person doesn't want their lives interfered with by a bunch of government edicts. <grin>


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 1:53:46 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
What is it that you think explains human conflicts? Race/ethnicity alone does not account for all human conflicts. Even geo-political definitions cannot account for all human conflicts. Religion is an absolute factor - and a large one at that. And I am hard pressed to think of other MAJOR contributing factors.


Stuff, in a world with limited resources and covered with human beings we tend to fight over stuff.


Most of the time, that seems to be true, although in this instance (Israel), it seems that religion really does play a role. They're literally fighting over "holy ground." As I recall, there are some temples in Jerusalem which are/were important to both Jews and Muslims. Christians have also had a great deal of interest in that territory, and many U.S. Christians support Israel mainly for religious reasons. They say it's "God's will," so that pretty much settles it in their minds.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 3:01:42 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		So what is it you are claiming they are following? I don't think anyone on this thread is claiming that groups, in general, don't harm other groups. The point many of us are trying to make is that religion is another way of people defining their difference from others, and if one looks historically, some of the main categories of groups that have victimized others would be: race, religion, ethnicity. I don't mean this list to be exhaustive, but it probably covers 90% of historical strife. And I would wager that religion, on its own, probably accounts for over 70/80%. How many tribes lack religion? How many nations on this planet actually recognize religious freedom or are not completely dominated by one particular religion? Please point out human conflicts that exist completely devoid of religious differences. I am sure there are some, but I doubt very many when you consider conflicts overall.

What is it that you think explains human conflicts? Race/ethnicity alone does not account for all human conflicts. Even geo-political definitions cannot account for all human conflicts. Religion is an absolute factor - and a large one at that. And I am hard pressed to think of other MAJOR contributing factors.

It has been my experience that all wars are fought so the winner can fuck their women and steal their dope....all the posturing about human rights,religious purity etc. is nothing more than rhetoric.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 4:24:57 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

And I am hard pressed to think of other MAJOR contributing factors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsvyACdT8NE

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 5:09:39 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And I am hard pressed to think of other MAJOR contributing factors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsvyACdT8NE

When it comes to political ideologies, I've always been of the opinion that good people will make even a bad system work, and bad people will manage to fuck up the best. The common element in both cases is people, and I think that's just as true in religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxTAOEkzUCs

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2014 5:12:24 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 5:49:05 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Too many to mention.


One will do.


Why bother you will come up with a source au contraire. It's a left right ballgame.


So thats a no then, tis as I figured.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 6:00:04 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

None of the Islamics I knew in school had a real understanding of separation of church and state


In your experience, do you think the reverse is true?

That most Americans have trouble accepting that church and state are essentially one in Muslim/Arab countries?

I find that to be true...



Then you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Use_of_Sharia_by_country.svg

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/28/2014 6:22:43 PM   
Marc2b


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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Some germans called for genocide also. And you know what? They all participated.


Okay, I wasn't going to respond at first because, truth be told, I don't really like you (when you respond with "bite me" I just don't feel the love ). Still, I don't dislike you enough to put you on my official Collarme Shitheads List . . . yet.

And, I don't like to leave things hanging if I am going to bolt for the weekend . . . so . . .

All is an absolute term. Of course all Germans did not participate in the Holocaust. Some were too young to understand and so no responsibility can be placed upon them. Some did oppose the regime. Although they were never very well organized or effective, they did oppose. If by "German" you include not just nationality but ethnicity then many German-Americans (as well as some German-Canadians I presume) actively fought against the nazis as Allied soldiers (and many, no doubt were maimed or killed in the process). I had the privilege of knowing one German-American who fought against the nazis - my Grandfather.

Even if we were to agree that a majority of the German population were at least in agreement with the goals of the Holocaust, all that does is point to the ease in which mass delusion can translate into human evil.

I've already said my piece on what is necessary for peace in the Middle East. As for the side topic of Religion that has grown on this thread i'll just sum up
with: I do not care what people believe so long as their beliefs do not violate my rights or the rights of others. If some religious folk want to rail against homosexuality because their god doesn't like it, I accept that as their right. They do not have the right to prevent homosexuals from getting married. Their god has no say in public policy, especially when he is demanding that people be treated like shit. They have the right to whine about my (or anyone else's lack of belief or disrespect for their religion. They don't have the right to actually stop us.

While I may criticize religion in general for its intolerance that does not mean that I regard secular ideologies to be any less capable of intolerance. Any belief system, if it believes it hold a monopoly on the truth, be it religious ("god is never wrong!") or secular ("Marx is never wrong") is dangerous.

I will continue to maintain that intolerance is a primary ingredient (or at least a likely outcome) for most religions. A secular belief system is not beholden to a god (particularly, one who will burn you forever if you don't go along with him) and so at least has a greater probability of self examination, reflection and change.

I wish everyone (even those of you I don't really like ) a great weekend.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/29/2014 7:06:27 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Has anyone come up with a way to treat people with tolerance that don't believe in tolerance?

Perhaps I'm missing something but I see a lot of parallels with those that want Sharia imposed with other types of religious fundamentalists that want creation science forced into school curriculums and religion based bans on behaviors given the force of law.


(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/29/2014 10:27:03 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


If you wish to say that the settlement building is slow ethnic cleansing - I agree.

And the palestinians plight is only made worse by the arab league who would rather have a pr chip than a solution.

Israel has the power to continue making settlements. The arabs would be better to accept the agreement in principle, get peace and then break the agreemet when it suited.

Such is war and diplomacy.

Yes Israel has the power to continue making settlements. It also has the power to make peace.

It continues to choose to use the power to make settlements knowing full well that this is making peace impossible.

Simple choice - peace or settlements. Israel's actions tell us it has chosen settlements (which are really better described as organised criminal enterprises, for that is what they are) and rejected the option of peace. No amount of spin can alter these basic indisputable facts (or events, if you prefer). There's a mountain of video evidence at YouTube to demonstrate that it has chosen ethnic cleansing as its preferred policy to complement and enforce its land theft and other criminal activities in Occupied Palestine

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 3:35:40 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Tweakable...... Dont be silly quoting evidence, it just makes it harder for some people to follow events.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 6:47:35 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If you put it in context this was part of the corruption of the Church which led to the reformation.
Even the Catholic church acknowledged that it was wrong.
Even a hijacking of the religion by those who have warped it's meaning does not mean they
actually represent that religion.
For example today, which is what counts, the "Islamic fundamentalists" are, in my opinion are
hijacking Islam in much the same manor.

BTW my branch of Christianity repudiated the inquisition centuries ago.


I see. So apologizing after the fact for genocide makes everything okay.

The fundamental point is that belonging to different religions causes people to view each other as different. There is only one human species. I disagree with anything that repeatedly throughout history causes unnecessary division, strife and conflict. An apology after the fact is simply insufficient given the gravity of things liked forced conversions/genocide. Just because a religion believes in some variation of "sin is forgiven" should not be misconstrued as an excuse to do whatever one wants to others with complete disregard for others' rights to their own religion and to exist. I'm not sure "oops, sorry about that" really counts as an honest acknowledgment of the horrors. Not to mention it does ZERO for promoting tolerance in the future since "oops, sorry about that" is NOT, in fact, a promise to avoid the same in the future.


I didn't see where he was apologizing for anything and the fact that you seem to think he was is very telling. The inquisition was a long fucking time ago yet you seem to bring it up at every chance to somehow bolster your hatred towards anyone religious. And then you lecture others on tolerance? Now I understand that you feel religion is evil and the only thing sane folks can do it try and minimize any damage it does but eventually you are going to have to accept that that's not how the majority feels about it and it's not going anywhere any time soon. Just like the racists are learning they are just going to have to keep their pie holes closed and learn to live with people of other races.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 7:50:12 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

None of the Islamics I knew in school had a real understanding of separation of church and state


In your experience, do you think the reverse is true?

That most Americans have trouble accepting that church and state are essentially one in Muslim/Arab countries?

I find that to be true...

I don't, but I have studied Islamic culture for 50 years

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 7:57:06 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If you put it in context this was part of the corruption of the Church which led to the reformation.
Even the Catholic church acknowledged that it was wrong.
Even a hijacking of the religion by those who have warped it's meaning does not mean they
actually represent that religion.
For example today, which is what counts, the "Islamic fundamentalists" are, in my opinion are
hijacking Islam in much the same manor.

BTW my branch of Christianity repudiated the inquisition centuries ago.


I see. So apologizing after the fact for genocide makes everything okay.

The fundamental point is that belonging to different religions causes people to view each other as different. There is only one human species. I disagree with anything that repeatedly throughout history causes unnecessary division, strife and conflict. An apology after the fact is simply insufficient given the gravity of things liked forced conversions/genocide. Just because a religion believes in some variation of "sin is forgiven" should not be misconstrued as an excuse to do whatever one wants to others with complete disregard for others' rights to their own religion and to exist. I'm not sure "oops, sorry about that" really counts as an honest acknowledgment of the horrors. Not to mention it does ZERO for promoting tolerance in the future since "oops, sorry about that" is NOT, in fact, a promise to avoid the same in the future.

Come on now, you are too intelligent to believe that is what I was saying.
You do understand that repudiate means condemn, not apologize don't you.
Holding the inquisition against todays Christians who have repudiated it
is refusal to accept reality. You do realize that was over 500 years ago.
The atheistic Soviets and Cambodians have done worse in their efforts
to purge wrong thinking people within the last century. And it wasn't
30 years ago that China was running tanks over wrong thinking people.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/30/2014 8:48:48 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 8:07:50 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Has anyone come up with a way to treat people with tolerance that don't believe in tolerance?

Perhaps I'm missing something but I see a lot of parallels with those that want Sharia imposed with other types of religious fundamentalists that want creation science forced into school curriculums and religion based bans on behaviors given the force of law.



Christian fundamentalist don't want people executed for professing
another religion, Sharia does.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs - 3/30/2014 8:35:49 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Christian fundamentalist don't want people executed for professing
another religion, Sharia does.


You might be surprised at how many would actually like that. Or, at least criminalizing anything out of their sects dogma. (i.e. the hellbound sins of drinkin', dancin', and card playin')
I think what keeps the sects that really would like to "shoot all the jews, popists and furriners" in line is that our laws are so strict against such.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 100
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