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What is basic health care? If they pay for birth contr... - 3/30/2014 7:40:47 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		One spam email I received really brought home how an issue can be given a spin to make it hugely inflammatory.

I only noticed the court case because I know someone that works for Hobby Lobby. If you haven't heard; Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care employees can receive based on the owner's religious convictions.

Dry take on the issue:
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/sebelius-v-hobby-lobby-stores-inc/

Now, the inflammatory email I received has a totally spin doctored take on the issue with links to contribute money.

http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=85357f0dca126ae9266631087&id=0c1f7be8f1&e=e2ce968f55

My first take on such things is FUD mongering to pry open your wallet. But, I'm a cynical old fart. I thought I'd toss this out on the boards and see if any fur flies and winnow for interesting ideas. (FUD => Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. If you generate such in your audience; it often disables the analytical functions of the brain.)

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 7:50:35 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		The premise is historically backwards. The fact that companies were covering Viagra but not birth control paved the way for birth control coverage.

Erections Get Insurance; Why Not the Pill?

June 19, 2002

Within weeks of hitting the U.S. market in 1998, more than half of Viagra prescriptions received health insurance coverage. If many women weren't already outraged that they had to pay for birth control out of pocket, they were infuriated at the preference given to the anti-impotence pills.

But the fury over Viagra may have given the fight for contraception covered under insurance plans just the momentum it needed. Women's groups say they're making significant progress in their battle to get reimbursed for birth control, even though insurers still argue that covering contraception will boost already skyrocketing health-care premiums.

This week, New York became the 20th state to require that insurers and employers provide contraceptive coverage. That means that half of U.S. women now live in states requiring at least some birth control coverage, according to Planned Parenthood. Massachusetts and Arizona passed similar bills earlier this year that will go into effect in 2003.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91538

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 7:57:59 AM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		O'Reilly: "Birth control is not a medical condition, it is a choice"

...As the blog Think Progress noted, on the July 17 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, while discussing the issue of whether health insurance plans that cover Viagra should also cover birth control, host Bill O'Reilly asserted: "Viagra is used to help a medical condition -- that's why it's covered. Birth control is not a medical condition, it is a choice. Why should I or anybody else have to pay for other people's choices?" But O'Reilly's assertion is contradicted by professional medical associations that have stated that pregnancy is a medical condition and that "[c]ontraception is medically necessary" for women.

O'Reilly made his comment after airing a Planned Parenthood Action Fund ad that included a clip of Sen. John McCain being asked: "It's unfair how the insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control. Do you have an opinion on that?" McCain responded: "I don't know enough about it to give you an informed answer." During the segment, O'Reilly also said: "Do I have to buy you dinner before you use the birth control? Give me and every other taxpayer a break, Planned Parenthood."

Dr. Luella Klein, former president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) and then-director of ACOG's women's health issues, was quoted in a May 12, 1998, USA Today article as saying: "Pregnancy is a medical condition, just like impotence. And the cost benefit of preventing pregnancy is much greater than treating impotence." In addition, ACOG's "Contraceptive Equity Toolkit" states that "[m]ost women can become pregnant from the time they are teenagers until they are in their late forties" and that "[c]ontraception is medically necessary to a woman for more than 30 years of her life." The Toolkit added: "To ignore the health benefits of contraception is to say that the alternative of 12 to 15 pregnancies during a woman's lifetime is medically acceptable."

Further, in a May 8, 2007, press release, ACOG stated that "contraception is basic, preventive health care and should be readily available and treated the same as prophylactic therapies for other medical conditions."

Read more: http://mediamatters.org/research/2008/07/20/oreilly-birth-control-is-not-a-medical-conditio/144099

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 8:21:51 AM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Actually, the case in point I wanted to point out was the fringe group wanting money and spinning birth control as murder.

There have been a lot of mixed rulings on birth control in the courts. Yes, there was a ruling that if an insurance company was covering drugs for erectile dysfunction they should cover birth control too. Court ordered birth control has been shot down in the case of a woman convicted of child neglect being ordered to get Norplant (back in the late 80s). The interpretation of laws is still shaking out.

The concept linking birth control with being murder of the unborn is what had me shaking my head.

This harks back to my youth when local ordinances were driven by certain religious interests. At one time; the sale of condoms were considered to be promoting promiscuity and you could only get them from the druggist by prescription. So, teenagers would drive across the state line and buy from vending machines at a truck stop. The high school had people surreptitiously selling smuggled condoms. And you could be expelled for possession of birth control on school property. Things changed in the 70s but I was out of high school before condoms could be openly displayed on drug store shelves.


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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 8:38:28 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		ok that's off topic but the thing about the school made me remember this old advert in italian television.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crXu32FjJbw

little translation
the teacher asks: "whose this?... so whose this?"
the students answer with: "it's mine"

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 9:00:18 AM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

ok that's off topic but the thing about the school made me remember this old advert in italian television.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crXu32FjJbw

little translation
the teacher asks: "whose this?... so whose this?"
the students answer with: "it's mine"


I love it. So divergent from the attitude I saw in my youth that if you knew what one was you were a deviant.

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 11:03:24 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		ok now I say something about the topic: birth control pill has other uses than prevent pregnancies, so when a woman has got a prescription how do they know it's not for a medical condition? Will they also not cover any other drug that may cause temporary infetility?

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 11:16:01 AM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

The concept linking birth control with being murder of the unborn is what had me shaking my head.


I assumed they were referring to emergency contraceptives rather than regular birth control. Also, I can understand confusion between the morning after and 5 day after pills, and the abortion drug RU486, or Mifeprex. That pill isn't considered a contraceptive and isn't covered by the new insurance requirements.

Morning-After Pills Don't Cause Abortion, Studies Say

The most heated part of the fight between the Obama administration and religious groups over new rules that require most health plans to actually has nothing to do with birth control. It has to do with abortion.

Specifically, do emergency contraceptives interfere with a fertilized egg and cause what ?

"The Health and Human Services preventive services mandate forces businesses to provide the morning-after and the week-after pills in our health insurance plans," said David Green, founder and CEO of the arts and crafts chain Hobby Lobby, one of the firms . "These abortion-causing drugs go against our faiths."

The morning-after pill he's referring to is sold under the brand name Plan B. The week-after pill, which actually only works for five days after unprotected sex, is called ella.

Both are classified by the Food and Drug Administration as contraceptives. Neither is the same as the abortion drug RU486, or Mifeprex. That pill isn't considered a contraceptive and isn't covered by the new insurance requirements.

The constant references to Plan B and ella as abortion-causing pills frustrates , a professor of health policy at George Washington University and a former assistant commissioner for women's health at the FDA.

"It is not only factually incorrect, it is downright misleading. These products are not abortifacients," she says. "And their only connection to abortion is that they can prevent the need for one."

Read more: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/22/172595689/morning-after-pills-dont-cause-abortion-studies-say

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 11:46:17 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		It is strange how not wanting to get pregnant is a choice, but wanting to get a stiffy in defiance of God's will isn't. Double standard or what?

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 11:53:01 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		My personal opinion that even dates before Roe V. Wade is that legislation shouldn't be involved in an issue that should be between a woman, her spiritual adviser, and her medical provider.

The days of the "back alley abortion" still existed in my early life. The poor or unconnected often had to use such abominable services. The well to do might discuss the issue with their doctor and hear something like, "I think we should do a D&C with a biopsy to try and find out why you are having menstrual bleeding lasting weeks." Catch the weasel words?

I'm in favor of letting the medical professionals determine health care rather than clueless legislators. And, if it is needed for health, it should be covered under a reasonable health care plan.

The issue in the cited court case is whether an employer who subsidizes a health insurance plan should allow contraceptive services under their subsidized insurance when they have religious objections to contraception et. al.
The way I see the ruling is that, if you are subsidizing health insurance; you don't get to dictate to the medical professionals what is necessary health care based on religious beliefs. You can provide coverage or not but you can't use it to dictate the personal lives of your employees in that issue.

The issue also touches on the fringes of discriminating in employment based on marital status as people have lost employment based on having children out of wedlock or living with someone while unwed. There are still a lot of grey areas as to what extent an employer can dictate the behavior of employees outside of work. I thoroughly agree with the direction the court took on this issue that dictating health care choices isn't in the purview of the employer.

I have a feeling that if the employer had a health insurance policy that had no provision at all for reproductive health care, pre-natal health care or anything to do with reproduction; there would not have been an issue with the court. But neither would they have employees that thought much of their health care benefit either.


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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 12:06:49 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		If it takes legislation to keep a woman's "spiritual advisor" out of the negotiations between a woman and her medical provider, then I'm all for it. What worries me is the way legislators are starting to pander to the "spiritual advisors" rather than the women who need healthcare.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 4:00:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I only noticed the court case because I know someone that works for Hobby Lobby. If you haven't heard; Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care employees can receive based on the owner's religious convictions.


That's not exactly true. The truth is that Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care it will pay for based on the owner's religious convictions. Any Hobby Lobby employee can still get birth control.

Just because insurance isn't paying for it, doesn't mean there isn't any access to it. We still do plenty of elective surgeries in the US, yet few (if any) insurances pay for elective surgeries. People have braces, and will continue to do so, even though not all insurances cover them (all mine have covered them at 50% up to a specific payout amount and then no coverage after that).

I take the stance that if birth control medications are being used solely for pregnancy prevention, and not for treatment of a medical condition, it shouldn't have to be covered. I'm not saying it shouldn't be covered, as that's not for me to decide for anyone but me, but that it shouldn't have to be covered. For medical condition treatment (which would include preventing pregnancy that would be very deleterious to someone's health because of a current medical condition; a subject in "Steel Magnolias"), they should be treated like any other treatment drug. And, I think it would be wrong to mandate coverage for ED medications, too.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 4:12:09 PM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

That's not exactly true. The truth is that Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care it will pay for based on the owner's religious convictions. Any Hobby Lobby employee can still get birth control.



Yes, I should have said, under their subsidized insurance.

I need to check the details to know for sure but I remember when the suit first started the original suit had to do with fertility drugs and prenatal care were covered but an employee being told that birth control would not be covered even though the administering health care plan said it would. And the original judgement for the plaintiff was based on providing gynecology services for one employee but denying them to another based not on contract provisions of the insurance policy but the religious convictions of the owners.

I remember back when the flack first started some of my crafty acquaintances wanting to boycott Hobby Lobby over the issue of using religious excuses to deny coverage they had provided to others.

The big picture I get is that if you have a social contract with employees for insurance or other benefits you can't pick and choose who you will provide those benefits to because you don't like their lifestyle choices. You can either deny benefits to all or give them to all.


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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 4:19:32 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The truth is that Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care it will pay for based on the owner's religious convictions.

Is Hobby Lobby paying for it, or is the insurance carrier? How long after the premium is paid does the money still "belong" to Hobby Lobby?

Would Hobby Lobby have legal grounds to object if an employee spent part of his or her paycheck--funded by HL, after all--on an objectionable form of contraception?



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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 4:26:05 PM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		ok and what happens if the employer belive that medicine is witchcraft and will cover just for a prayer group?

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/30/2014 4:39:43 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Valid questions there. What I gather from the coverage of the court case is that the issue was the insurance covered some pregnancy related health issues but the owners refused an employee access through the insurance for another pregnancy issue, birth control.

Can an employer pick what type of health care provided by insurance based on religious convictions to one employee while providing a similar type of health care to another? What I got was the answer is "NO" you can't pick and choose who you provide health care to if you have an installed health plan at your business. They could quit offering any health care through their business but can't pick who gets services paid for based on the owners personal convictions.

For details, hit google and see.


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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/31/2014 6:46:17 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That's not exactly true. The truth is that Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care it will pay for based on the owner's religious convictions. Any Hobby Lobby employee can still get birth control.

Yes, I should have said, under their subsidized insurance.
I need to check the details to know for sure but I remember when the suit first started the original suit had to do with fertility drugs and prenatal care were covered but an employee being told that birth control would not be covered even though the administering health care plan said it would. And the original judgement for the plaintiff was based on providing gynecology services for one employee but denying them to another based not on contract provisions of the insurance policy but the religious convictions of the owners.
I remember back when the flack first started some of my crafty acquaintances wanting to boycott Hobby Lobby over the issue of using religious excuses to deny coverage they had provided to others.
The big picture I get is that if you have a social contract with employees for insurance or other benefits you can't pick and choose who you will provide those benefits to because you don't like their lifestyle choices. You can either deny benefits to all or give them to all.


Fertility drugs are covered?!? My ex's (we were married at the time) insurance didn't cover fertility drugs at all. We had to do that out of pocket.

The thing with Hobby Lobby is that they don't want to pay for certain benefits. It wasn't that they'd pay for benefits for this person but not that person. It was the specific benefit they didn't want to pay for.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/31/2014 6:50:32 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

ok and what happens if the employer belive that medicine is witchcraft and will cover just for a prayer group?



I guess he would have a hard time finding anyone to work for him. Why do you keep coming up with outlandish scenarios that will never happen?

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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/31/2014 6:50:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

The truth is that Hobby Lobby restricts the type of medical care it will pay for based on the owner's religious convictions.

Is Hobby Lobby paying for it, or is the insurance carrier? How long after the premium is paid does the money still "belong" to Hobby Lobby?
Would Hobby Lobby have legal grounds to object if an employee spent part of his or her paycheck--funded by HL, after all--on an objectionable form of contraception?


I don't know if HL's premiums would change if the plan(s) didn't have to cover pregnancy prevention drugs. If they would change, then that's what they are paying towards those drugs. If I give you a dollar to buy me a $1 soda, and you follow through on the deal, who paid for the soda?

Once payment is made to an employee, according to the contract between the employee and the employer, that money is the private property of the employee. The employee is free to do with it as he/she chooses.






_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: What is basic health care? If they pay for birth c... - 3/31/2014 6:54:28 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
ok and what happens if the employer belive that medicine is witchcraft and will cover just for a prayer group?


Then that is some shitty insurance.

Employer paid insurance is a perk. It always has been.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 20
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