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Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms Warning) - 3/30/2014 2:05:12 PM   
subbibear


Posts: 46
Joined: 3/2/2014
Status: offline 		Since 1997-ish I've played on and off the public scene mainly on the gay side of the equation. In that time I've had my consent violated once. In that circumstance I made a series of monumentally bad decisions that put me in a position where I could not stop the Dominant who decided not to respect my revocation of consent.

In that time frame, outside of that traumatic event, I have never had to go past yellow in my preferred safe word scheme of green/yellow/red. I have had scenes where I felt bad a few days later and realized I had not negotiated to the best of my ability or I had not been vocal enough at the time about my state of mind/being/pain. But I have never thought of those situations as consent violations because the Dominant involved did not cross any negotiated boundary nor did they fail to check in with me regularly. They did everything right. I just felt bad later for some reason and had to process that information and come to grips with it each time as new boundaries I had discovered or some sort of issue with my mood/state of mind at the time. I certainly never fathomed the idea that I could retroactively revoke consent days or weeks after the event.

So my question lies in that netherworld of retroactive consent revocation. I offer as a given that any clear consent violation is just that. It could leave a submissive in shock and unable to protest immediately, I get that. That is not the situation I am discussing. I am asking about the scene where the Dominant didn't cross a negotiated boundary, did everything right by globally accepted standards- check-ins etc.- and the submissive did not revoke consent in real time, walked away in their right mind, everyone seemed happy. But then days later, the submissive chooses to revoke consent?

How does this play out in the public scene? How do we balance the need to create a safe space for a submissive who feels violated vs a safe space for a Dominant who appears to have done nothing wrong? As submissive people have you been in this position? Are you willing to share about it? What steps, if any, did those around you take that made things better for you? Did the Dominant involved address the issue directly with you? If so, did that help or make the situation worse?

I am asking for opinions, experiences and discussion.

I hope to avoid some intellectual laziness. For instance, If someone uses the phrase personal responsibility it would be great if they are not attacked as a victim blamer. It would also be nice if we do not assume gender roles here. Though if your opinion or input necessitates a specific gender role definition, by all means define it clearly. And of course I am well aware that no one has to listen to anything in this paragraph at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Open can of worms here)My opinions

I am, what is the best word, concerned? Regarding a concept that grabbed a lot of support recently. The idea put forth was that every Dominant who plays puts themselves at risk as a consent violator every time they play on the basis of the notion that any submissive who feels violated, be it days or weeks after a scene ends, is violated. Ipso facto the Dominant must hang their head in public shame, apologize and do what they can to make it right by the submissive.

If it is a consent violation, that is, the Dominant violated a negotiated limit, failed to follow globally accepted standards, or otherwise behaved outside of the negotiated scene, coerced or intimidated, intoxicated or mentally disabled the submissive- yes yes a thousand times yes, break out the pitchforks and torches. It is clearly on the Dominant to straighten out the mess and they well may face legal repercussions.

But if we start to assume that every scene we enter into has a open ended limit on consent revocation, doesn't that tear apart the very fabric of our culture of consent/assent to start with? I came into this scene in 1997-ish, and I still consider myself a youngster by comparison to so many of the people I know. People who have worked diligently for some 40 years now to achieve some minimum of legal recognition of what it is that we do. That recognition is based entirely on consent/assent/revocation. Am I missing something? Please fill me in here, seriously I want to know? Doesn't this concept of open ended revocation mean that it simply isn't safe for a Dominant to play outside of a very select group of people they already know and trust?

I have PTSD. I can potentially dissociate when I am in bondage and being dominated. If I get into a scene where that presents a risk to my safety, if it means I can't safe word out, then it is on me to make sure the Dominant knows every freaking detail about it, how to spot it and when to stop the scene on their own before it goes to far. If I fail to tell them about it, that is my fault. I can hope that they are informed enough to see the signs. But I damn sure can't go screaming about a consent violation three days later because I suddenly realized I had dropped out for 30 minutes that night.
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 2:15:52 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Hear, hear!

With that said, a dominant who tends to fly high in topspace and knows they aren't going to be able to watch the bottom for signs like rigid body language, cringing away may technically not have done anything wrong in not stopping when the bottom doesn't red, but they aren't going to be someone I would recommend playing with.

It's like having both seat belts and air bags in a car. Double the chances of walking away. So I want the dominant to be aware of me because I might hit a trigger and not be able to talk. And just like you warn the dominant that you might dissociate and not be able to safeword, a dominant owes it to the submissive to also disclose any such issues that will prevent them from being on the alert for problems.

If the dominant doesn't also disclose, that's a bad thing in my book. Because it means he's hiding something to be sure he can play instead of allowing the bottom to decide they don't want to play with you. It's like not telling someone you're HIV+ just because you will wear a condom. Don't they deserve to know so they can make up their mind on their own about how much risk they want to take instead of having the ability to give or deny consent in the circumstance removed from them?

ETA to add that you write awesome topics.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 3/30/2014 2:16:34 PM >

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 2:23:46 PM   
frunandsins


Posts: 81
Joined: 10/7/2012
Status: offline 		I guess I just haven't come across the discussion that you're referencing in the community, concerning retroactive consent withdrawal.

Honestly, I think that's a misnomer. I think it is more aptly termed "regret." If boundaries were negotiated, and the Dom didn't violate those boundaries, AND if the sub didn't give any reasonable indication that at the time, s/he is no longer consenting, then I do not see how the Dom should be held responsible. To do so otherwise really will make it impossible to carry out D/s relationships.

Obviously, if it is an on-going relationship, then the Dom must be informed of it afterwards when the sub is experiencing regret, so the two can talk about it and find new boundaries to go forward together.

That said, it is one of my worries, and that's why I always explain to my applicants, especially if they're relatively new, that negotiating a play session is about trust, from both sides. The sub has to trust the Dom, for obvious reasons, since s/he is giving up control in so many ways. But the Dom also has to trust the sub that the consent they give is meaningful.

The PTSD issue is much more difficult. When someone is in shock they really cannot be said to be behaving rationally, and so consent does become questionable, if not outright revoked. However, it seems a little too onerous to ask all Doms to be versed in observing signs of someone going into shock, since some people shut down and some people freak out and some people things that are in between that range. So as a practical matter, I don't see a very good way of safeguarding against it. The best that can be hoped for is that if the submissive knows that s/he can go into shock on certain triggers to make sure to tell the Dom, and negotiate whether they want to be put into that space or not. This doesn't help much if the sub doesn't know these triggers very well (or even that they have PTSD episodes).

But this thread does inspire me to add another standard question to my interview: have you had traumatic experience in the past that could induce PTSD episodes during play?



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To each, their own kinks, and may they suffer beautifully.

(in reply to subbibear)
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 4:21:23 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Dominant here but I used to be a submissive.

That retroactive revocation of consent make me think of the commonly talked about morning after regrets. It's kind of difficult, I think, to revoke your consent after it's all said and done. The horse is already out of the gate. That's different than revoking consent in the middle of a scene by safewording. In that case, all play should stop the moment the safeword is uttered. Even I, when I was a sub, safeworded in the middle of a scene. I'd never been whipped before and the Dom was brand-new at wielding a single-tail. He wailed on me too hard and that was the end of that.

This is a good reason for negotiating beforehand, before anyone is spacey, and making sure everything is clear for both people ahead of time. I can see thinking better of something and safewording to stop it. But it's kind of late to withdraw consent after the fact. If I thought there were any chance of that happening after the fact, I wouldn't play with the person. I only play with my submissive and with very good friends, and then only after very good communicating & negotiating.

NBMG

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 5:27:14 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbibear

Since 1997-ish I've played on and off the public scene mainly on the gay side of the equation. In that time I've had my consent violated once. In that circumstance I made a series of monumentally bad decisions that put me in a position where I could not stop the Dominant who decided not to respect my revocation of consent.

In that time frame, outside of that traumatic event, I have never had to go past yellow in my preferred safe word scheme of green/yellow/red. I have had scenes where I felt bad a few days later and realized I had not negotiated to the best of my ability or I had not been vocal enough at the time about my state of mind/being/pain. But I have never thought of those situations as consent violations because the Dominant involved did not cross any negotiated boundary nor did they fail to check in with me regularly. They did everything right. I just felt bad later for some reason and had to process that information and come to grips with it each time as new boundaries I had discovered or some sort of issue with my mood/state of mind at the time. I certainly never fathomed the idea that I could retroactively revoke consent days or weeks after the event.

So my question lies in that netherworld of retroactive consent revocation. I offer as a given that any clear consent violation is just that. It could leave a submissive in shock and unable to protest immediately, I get that. That is not the situation I am discussing. I am asking about the scene where the Dominant didn't cross a negotiated boundary, did everything right by globally accepted standards- check-ins etc.- and the submissive did not revoke consent in real time, walked away in their right mind, everyone seemed happy. But then days later, the submissive chooses to revoke consent?

How does this play out in the public scene? How do we balance the need to create a safe space for a submissive who feels violated vs a safe space for a Dominant who appears to have done nothing wrong? As submissive people have you been in this position? Are you willing to share about it? What steps, if any, did those around you take that made things better for you? Did the Dominant involved address the issue directly with you? If so, did that help or make the situation worse?

I am asking for opinions, experiences and discussion.

I hope to avoid some intellectual laziness. For instance, If someone uses the phrase personal responsibility it would be great if they are not attacked as a victim blamer. It would also be nice if we do not assume gender roles here. Though if your opinion or input necessitates a specific gender role definition, by all means define it clearly. And of course I am well aware that no one has to listen to anything in this paragraph at all.


Yeah; "can of worms"....  And yet another good reason why I don't involve myself in public play, with or without strangers.  Not judging, just sayin'....
 
I've been in the lifestyle quite a bit longer than you and I've never heard of the concept (never mind the logical impossibility of it) of "retroactive consent revocation".  But ok, not doing public play can be another way of saying I don't get out much. 
 
If you mean "regrets", yeah, we all get those.  That's how we learn and absorb the lessons life's busy teaching us.  If you're looking for someone to blame, start with the mirror - your pic (age) suggests you're overdue for some changes to your lifestyle choices.
 
Focus.

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Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to subbibear)
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 5:46:49 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

With that said, a dominant who tends to fly high in topspace and knows they aren't going to be able to watch the bottom for signs like rigid body language, cringing away may technically not have done anything wrong in not stopping when the bottom doesn't red, but they aren't going to be someone I would recommend playing with.


More things I have no concept of....  lol
 
"Top space" is one of those areas where I take my lead from my submissive.  ie, I can only go there if she's blissfully off in sub-space.  If she gives off any sign of distress, I'm out of it in an instant.
 
Just imagined that's how it worked for all doms.
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 6:08:20 PM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		I agree Focus, in regards to "retroactive consent revocation" being a bit of an incorrect idea.

Consent is permission to do something in the future. That may be in a few seconds, or for the life of a relationship.
The revocation of consent is withdrawing permission of said task in the future.

I think what you're referring to are regrets. You wish in the moment you hadn't allowed it. I've had many of these. I view that they're part of the risk you take if you allow things you aren't certain you'll be fine with. For most of us, that means we always risk regretting something. But you learn about limits through them, and get to know yourself better.

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 6:09:27 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		If you have "morning after regrets", that's on you. Not the dom. You deal with your emotions and actions, you talk to him about how you feel and you decide from there what you want to do and if you want to continue with that person. But there is absolutely no fault in the dom. This is how we get the stories here in the forums of "I didn't want to have sex but it was just too late to stop it". eeeerr...it's never too late! Just stop.


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Everything has changed

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 6:15:25 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		It doesn't happen here. If someone were to decide after the fact that they withdrew consent retroactively, they'd just torpedo their own reputation.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 6:26:29 PM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		Post Deleted

< Message edited by FightingChains -- 3/30/2014 6:31:07 PM >

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 6:50:45 PM   
shadowborn61


Posts: 143
Joined: 11/5/2013
Status: offline 		I have little experience but i see it like this.
If i play with any Dominant that i know or at least know by reputation then it is up to me to negotiate in my best interest setting out clear boundaries and making sure the Top knows what those are. If after all that i do not use a safeword trying to push myself or i awake the next day and think "damn that was stupid of me" that is on me not the Dominant unless they have gone beyond the boundaries i set and they agreed to.

< Message edited by shadowborn61 -- 3/30/2014 6:53:56 PM >

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/30/2014 11:56:08 PM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		Isn't this just like saying "it was date rape" even though at the time the girl had said "Please please please have sex with me" when sober?

You can't change the story because you regret the situation. You gave permission. You can't go back in time and change that.

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"Get comfortable in your skin; you're going to be in it for a while."

(in reply to shadowborn61)
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/31/2014 8:58:02 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Something like this came up for me when I was still playing in the public dungeons.
It was all friendly stuff, we all knew each other and had no objections to allowing people to watch the play if they wanted.  I had my body bent over a bar while I was being spanked by a dominant I had known for a couple of years when (I guess) he invited a new guy behind me to partake in a spank or two.  I will say that I am someone who can drop into subspace in moments and was somewhat there because I could still smell the air which was thick with violet wand emissions. So there I am, blissfully enjoying my quickly heated bottom when my top stepped aside and I felt one smack from the other guy. 

NO frikkin way!

Until that moment I never knew I could exit subspace as quickly as I could enter.  I removed myself from the bar, put my hand on the guy who should not have been topping me and said "No"
He looked a bit surprised but gave a quick apology and stepped back.  My top, did not say anything.  I did not blame the top because our dungeon was a friendly environment and everyone there seemed to be very much into sharing.  But I am not.  I participated because it was part of my persona to make people comfy, but I have never been comfy in public. 

I do believe that we have a degree of personal responsibility.  If I do not want something to happen I state it as soon as a line may be crossed or if it has been crossed. 

I protect me.

I think that if one is going to do this stuff we do, you have to know you are taking your chances. 
If you are willing to take those chances you better damned well be sure you are capable of saying no in the moment.  And if you are not, then at least admit your part in the mistake (even if your mistake was in your inability to react), and move on with a lesson learned.

Life is a series of lessons, good and bad.  It is what we take from them which defines us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: subbibear
How does this play out in the public scene? How do we balance the need to create a safe space for a submissive who feels violated vs a safe space for a Dominant who appears to have done nothing wrong? As submissive people have you been in this position? Are you willing to share about it? What steps, if any, did those around you take that made things better for you? Did the Dominant involved address the issue directly with you? If so, did that help or make the situation worse?



_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to subbibear)
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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/31/2014 10:37:46 AM   
Blueswordsman


Posts: 173
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline 		Revocation of consent after the deed is done is not cool. It's pushes some of the responsibility of your decision onto another. If you are unsure how you feel or what to do, seeking clarity (even at CM) is a good move. We all have regrets. It just sounds like a do over wont fix the problem. Perhaps, a NEVER AGAIN might. Feel better.


(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/31/2014 1:26:14 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Retroactive Consent Revocation is an oxymoron. You cannot revoke consent after the fact. Violating non-consent or assuming implicit consent where there is none, is a breach. This is why it is so critically important to only play with trusted partners to narrow your risk margin as a submissive. The introduction of new play should be thoroughly discussed in advance. Only in a committed, intimate LTR can spontaneity hold sway without concomitant risk factors beyond simple technique.

ETA: subbibear, part of what you're describing is changing one's mind by withdrawing consent. You erroneously felt that precedence had to be upheld, and that you had no right to exercise this option, but you were mistaken (or misled). Consent can always be withdrawn from that moment on, or in the midst of play (as Missokyst did). Consent can be re-instated. Consent can be temporarily suspended with the use of a safe word/signal. AFTER the deed has been done, and you went along with it, you can't blame your partner unless there was a communications breakdown of an egregious magnitude.

< Message edited by FieryOpal -- 3/31/2014 1:41:50 PM >

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There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

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RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/31/2014 2:06:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowborn61

I have little experience but i see it like this.
If i play with any Dominant that i know or at least know by reputation then it is up to me to negotiate in my best interest setting out clear boundaries and making sure the Top knows what those are. If after all that i do not use a safeword trying to push myself or i awake the next day and think "damn that was stupid of me" that is on me not the Dominant unless they have gone beyond the boundaries i set and they agreed to.

If I play with a sub I insist on clear boundaries (not to be confused with scripting) to be certain
we are on the same page.

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 3/31/2014 5:04:26 PM   
frunandsins


Posts: 81
Joined: 10/7/2012
Status: offline 		If I were to take a slave to a public dungeon, I would make damn sure we discuss before hand the permutations of permissions. I am a fierce guardian of my toys and I will not endanger my toys by loaning them out for use under murky terms and agreements. I will also never step away while my sub is vulnerable, i.e. tied and/or gagged. That just invites abuse, intentional or accidental.

So perhaps some of these issues are more about public play agreements between Dom/mes and subs before hand?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 4/1/2014 9:24:18 AM   
merge9


Posts: 95
Joined: 6/11/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Retroactive Consent Revocation is an oxymoron. You cannot revoke consent after the fact.


Agreed.

You can say, "Doing that again is a Hard Limit."

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 4/1/2014 12:33:50 PM   
subbibear


Posts: 46
Joined: 3/2/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

So perhaps some of these issues are more about public play agreements between Dom/mes and subs before hand?


Very much so. consent/assent matter, in every possible sense. But they have to be informed. Negotiation can't be left out. And the communication skills of those involved will govern the effectiveness of the negotiation. Good skills, fewer regrets. IMHO.

RE: the majority of responses. Yes, retroactive revocation is a load of crap barring something egregious like a rape that puts one partner into medical shock preventing their ability to revoke consent in the moment. And as I said, that is not really the case I was discussing in the first place.

It is the insidious nature of this way of thinking, the idea that every Dom should now fear this event. I am relieved to see it hasn't spread as far as I thought. You have put my concerns at rest. For my own part, I am largely out of the public scene at this point. I go to about one event per year. And even my private play, given that I am now under consideration and working towards a LTR monogamous situation, is less vulnerable to this thinking. I Just wanted to get input from other submissives here (Dominants too) to make sure I wasn't totally off base.

Edited to fix quotation.

< Message edited by subbibear -- 4/1/2014 12:34:59 PM >

(in reply to frunandsins)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Revoking Consent/Consent Violations (Can of Worms W... - 4/1/2014 1:22:49 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbibear
I am asking for opinions, experiences and discussion.

The very concept of "retroactively revoking consent" is horrifying. In the het world that makes 3/4 of the guys in the world a rapist. Any person who even breathed that phrase to me would be too dangerous for me to want to spend time around.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to subbibear)
Profile   Post #: 20
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