America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/6/2014 8:36:46 PM)

According to Pew:
Since 2008, the percentage of Americans who describe themselves as middle class has lurched down from 53 percent to 44 percent, while the number of people who see themselves as lower class has rocketed up from 25 percent to 40 percent, according to a January report by the Pew Research Center.

“In 2008, a quarter of all young adults identified as being in the lower or lower-middle class; today about twice as many do (49%), a 24-point increase,” Pew reported.


Truly hard to imagine a more disastrous US President.

Regarding Chicago... Here's a link to the graphics.. showing the wiping out of the middle class under 84 years of democratic rule in chicago.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/04/03/amazing-graphic-shows-chicagos-middle-class-disappear-before-your-eyes/





http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/04/first-chicago-now-the-nation-sees-a-shriveling-middle-class/




joether -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/6/2014 11:25:17 PM)

What do those people defined as 'lower' and 'middle' class? Its the definition that is not consistent here. Are they determining things from the stand point of straight up wealth? Or how they are doing 'at that exact moment in time'? Are they looking at things from an individual perspective, or a global one?

You also ignore recent US History. In 2009, Chicago, like much of the nation went through a serious economic free-fall. One that has all the economists scared of a major and crippling depression. The President and Democrats managed to swing that problem to a stable and slowly growing economy. That people were losing jobs, their houses, and battles against bankruptcy. In that time, the economy as a whole has grown slowly. Unemployment has not decreased as fast as most impatient Americans demand on government. An that there are a number of circumstances (in addition to the 'Party of No' in Congress) that has been effecting the economy in both Chicago and at larger part, the whole country.

The President got handed a bad economy from the Republican/Tea Party. And its been attacked on every front by the Republican/Tea Party. That the Republican/Tea Party made its 'mission in life' to 'undermine the US Economy in the hopes it would make Mr. Obama a one term president', was not told enough to the American people. An that the Republican/Tea Party has tried to undermine each and every action by the President or Democrats to put people back to work, hold off foreclosures, and keep people from facing unemployment with even further reduced resources. Which political party was it that tried to shut down the US Government, and thereby put millions of people out of work? The Republican/Tea Party. The group that created the US Deficit, and turned a $2 trillion debt (and decreasing) into a $11.5 trillion (and increasing) US Debt. Increased the size of government and spending, while blaming everything on the Democrats.

Then, there are those that support the Republican/Tea Party....conservatives and libertarians. Oh, and those 'moderates' that are trying to hide their true colors from all other Americans. These folks...HATE...the President like the KKK did to blacks in the 1960s in the South. That they have thrashed at him on any and all things; including the stuff he was not responsible for in office. While giving the people they vote into office, a metaphorical blank check. If conservatives, libertarians and those 'moderates' were to hold their own party to the same level of accountability and responsibility with power as they slam the President and Democrats over on an hourly basis....this nation would be a better place.

The President has had some bad stuff happen on his watch, and he hasn't been 100% perfect. Yet, while I do not agree with some of his actions or thoughts, I can understand how he arrives at them. Since unlike former President George W. Bush, Mr. Obama will take time to explain his thinking on a subject matter when asked. The President is an intelligent and studied man. He would want people that are very intelligent and knowledgeable people around him to run the country well. But the President does not run the whole country. Much if it is the responsibility of Congress.

The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Young adults, have often looked at their futures in bleak terms since even the 1980s. Struggling with low pay, tuition, loans, and other costs, makes life tough on the young adults. Add in how well the economy is perceived to be doing by a very uninformed group of individuals, helps in understanding their viewpoints. An uninformed and fearful person is easy to manipulate. young adults have much in the way of things to be afraid on. Not every young adult has the benefit of good parents looking out for their well-being (failing that, good relatives and/or friends that are older).

So is it really a disastrous President? Or just a heavily biased viewpoint that Phydeaux holds, because he is pissed that President Obama PWNED, both his candidates for the White House in the 2008 and 2012 elections?



DaNewAgeViking -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 12:20:40 AM)

Or it could be that certain individuals find raving, foaming and spewing paranoid hate to be so much more satisfying than actually thinking and discussing issues rationally.
[sm=binky.gif]



MrRodgers -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 12:57:21 AM)

Oh and I am sure this pres. and the last 5 years accounts for this trend. [sic]



mnottertail -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 6:05:36 AM)

I thought that chicagos university was home to all the famous free market communists, Friedman et al.

That's where much of the issue lies. Nutsackers.



vincentML -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 6:52:02 AM)

Like the 2008 economic crisis was 'sposed to be solved on 20 JANUARY 2009.[8|]



JeffBC -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 11:00:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You also ignore recent US History. In 2009, Chicago, like much of the nation went through a serious economic free-fall. One that has all the economists scared of a major and crippling depression. The President and Democrats managed to swing that problem to a stable and slowly growing economy.

Uh... yeah... growing if you're in the 1%. There has been no recovery for almost everyone.

quote:

Oh, and those 'moderates' that are trying to hide their true colors from all other Americans. These folks...HATE...the President like the KKK did to blacks in the 1960s in the South.

I wouldn't say that. I hate the KKK because I hate bigots. I hate Obama because I'm in favor of the rule of law and opposed to tyranny. I'm also opposed to Corporatism/Fascism. I dislike liars also.

quote:

That they have thrashed at him on any and all things; including the stuff he was not responsible for in office.

Maybe but I'm content to thrash him with the stuff he did with his own pen and the stuff he said from his own lips.

quote:

While giving the people they vote into office, a metaphorical blank check. If conservatives, libertarians and those 'moderates' were to hold their own party to the same level of accountability and responsibility with power as they slam the President and Democrats over on an hourly basis....this nation would be a better place.

Probably. In the larger picture if voters held their elected officials accountable in general we'd all be better off. But at this point nobody actually cares what the politicians are doing. All people care about is that their color "won".

quote:

The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Heh good then. I'm perfectly content to slam both the republicans and my [ex] party, the Democrats. More to the point though, "slamming" them has zero value. I actually stopped VOTING for them. There ya go. This moderate should be getting your good housekeeping seal of approval.

quote:

So is it really a disastrous President? Or just a heavily biased viewpoint that Phydeaux holds, because he is pissed that President Obama PWNED, both his candidates for the White House in the 2008 and 2012 elections?

Oh no. It's definitely a disastrous president... as would be any Republican or Democratic president. I voted for that dirt bag in 2008. He lost my vote for for the democratic party as a whole pretty much in perpetuity -- or at least until they start caring about "we the people" again which isn't likely to happen.



Phydeaux -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 11:58:55 AM)

And to make my usual rejoinder.

I am not a republican. My candidate lost - and it wasn't Mitt Romney either.
And I won't vote for Hillary or Jeb either. I won't vote for any dynasty.
I won't vote for jackson. Or kennedy.

I won't vote for Michelle Nunn.
I won't vote for Cheney.

The very fact that some very significantly liberal people here concur that the issues go far beyond "spewing hate" suggest deep problems for the democrats in the upcoming election.


On a different matter..

I've been thinking how I would fix obamacare. As a rough stab .. what do you think of:


a). The administration of the database is handed off to 3rd party.
b). 5 or six tiers of service are proposed. Some that are more like "catastrophic care" for example.
c). Competition allowed across state lines.
d) Per state block grants.
e) Since it is elective, make no rules that forward a political position. Ie., don't push abortion (which favors planned parenthood & democrats). Don't make abortion illegal which would favor republicans. Along the lines of the Hyde amendment which had been the law of the land forever.


Some common goals:

1. Divorce health insurance from job. Health care should follow the individual.
2. Lower health insurance rates.
3. Use comparison shopping (ie., competition) to bring prices down.
4. End free lunches. Provide a hand up not a hand out.



DomKen -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 3:57:29 PM)

FR
Funny how progressives have been talking about income inequality for decades but now when a con thinks he can score political points by attacking a democrats he discovers that the middle class is shrinking.

But I'm sure a bunch of dumbass libertarian nonsense and a rollback of the ACA will fix everything, NOT!



Phydeaux -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 4:46:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
Funny how progressives have been talking about income inequality for decades but now when a con thinks he can score political points by attacking a democrats he discovers that the middle class is shrinking.

But I'm sure a bunch of dumbass libertarian nonsense and a rollback of the ACA will fix everything, NOT!


Still beggars the point Ken.

Why, with 80+ years of "progressive/liberal" enlightment is chicago doing so poorly.
Do you think it might be related to the same reasons detroit is doing poorly. Or Stockton?

Are there any current examples of the democrats in power for 50 years that is anything other than disaster?



DomKen -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 5:53:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
Funny how progressives have been talking about income inequality for decades but now when a con thinks he can score political points by attacking a democrats he discovers that the middle class is shrinking.

But I'm sure a bunch of dumbass libertarian nonsense and a rollback of the ACA will fix everything, NOT!


Still beggars the point Ken.

Why, with 80+ years of "progressive/liberal" enlightment is chicago doing so poorly.
Do you think it might be related to the same reasons detroit is doing poorly. Or Stockton?

Are there any current examples of the democrats in power for 50 years that is anything other than disaster?


Actually Chicago is doing better. That map chose  a bad start point and it uses a weird reference point. Metropolitan median income is well above the national average and makes the NW and SW sides look like they are getting very poor when in reality they are just getting greyer.

In reality the city is doing very well. In the 25 years I've lived here the north side has gotten much better and the near west and near south sides are improving as well.

As to disasters just look to Texas where towns explode.



JeffBC -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 9:19:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I've been thinking how I would fix obamacare. As a rough stab .. what do you think of:

I think you're talking the wrong person. I used to live in the US. When I did I had a very, very nice corporate health care package. I STILL like the "socialist" health care we get in Canada better... a lot better. I don't think free market is the answer here because the market isn't free. Health care is sort of a captive audience, no? The US already has, in theory, competitive pressure and that is quite evidently doing nothing since the hospitals routinely ripoff sick people. Tell me what in your plan is going to get a tylenol down to some number that sounds reasonable for a tylenol?

In the mean time I LOVE living in a health care system where I just walk in wherever i want to, present my care card, and get whatever care I need -- promptly, efficiently, and with virtually zero paperwork or fear of being bankrupted even though I have "insurance".



Phydeaux -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/7/2014 9:24:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I've been thinking how I would fix obamacare. As a rough stab .. what do you think of:

I think you're talking the wrong person. I used to live in the US. When I did I had a very, very nice corporate health care package. I STILL like the "socialist" health care we get in Canada better... a lot better. I don't think free market is the answer here because the market isn't free. Health care is sort of a captive audience, no? The US already has, in theory, competitive pressure and that is quite evidently doing nothing since the hospitals routinely ripoff sick people. Tell me what in your plan is going to get a tylenol down to some number that sounds reasonable for a tylenol?

In the mean time I LOVE living in a health care system where I just walk in wherever i want to, present my care card, and get whatever care I need -- promptly, efficiently, and with virtually zero paperwork or fear of being bankrupted even though I have "insurance".


You realize I wasn't actually talking to you, right?
But to address some of your points- the US has no effective competition. Especially with obamacare. Something like 90% of the markets are served with one or two providers.



joether -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 4:45:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Heh good then. I'm perfectly content to slam both the republicans and my [ex] party, the Democrats. More to the point though, "slamming" them has zero value. I actually stopped VOTING for them. There ya go. This moderate should be getting your good housekeeping seal of approval.


Stop voting, eh? So what your saying is you really do not want a say in government. And that we can just ignore your rambles all together. Got it!





thishereboi -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 5:41:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Heh good then. I'm perfectly content to slam both the republicans and my [ex] party, the Democrats. More to the point though, "slamming" them has zero value. I actually stopped VOTING for them. There ya go. This moderate should be getting your good housekeeping seal of approval.


Stop voting, eh? So what your saying is you really do not want a say in government. And that we can just ignore your rambles all together. Got it!





Out of that whole reply, this is the only point you can argue? But reading over it again, I totally understand. No one likes to be owned like that. And are you sure he meant he wasn't going to vote at all. I got the impression he just wasn't going to vote for the assholes in the republican or democratic parties. There are other options you know.



JeffBC -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 10:30:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Stop voting, eh? So what your saying is you really do not want a say in government. And that we can just ignore your rambles all together. Got it!

Wow, no freakin joke? You have drunk the kool-aid by gallons.

I stopped voting for republicans and democrats since they are simply two faces of the Party of Oligarchy. I vote Green nowadays since they actually represent my interests. But yeah, you can certainly ignore my ramblings as you see fit.



joether -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 10:31:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Heh good then. I'm perfectly content to slam both the republicans and my [ex] party, the Democrats. More to the point though, "slamming" them has zero value. I actually stopped VOTING for them. There ya go. This moderate should be getting your good housekeeping seal of approval.

Stop voting, eh? So what your saying is you really do not want a say in government. And that we can just ignore your rambles all together. Got it!

Out of that whole reply, this is the only point you can argue? But reading over it again, I totally understand. No one likes to be owned like that. And are you sure he meant he wasn't going to vote at all. I got the impression he just wasn't going to vote for the assholes in the republican or democratic parties. There are other options you know.


Actually I did a rebuttal of his post towards mine. Until I got down to this little gem. Thought about keeping the material with this one. But it seemed rather irrelevant. When one doesn't vote, why should we take them seriously in a discussion when politics is in the nature? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and do not interrogate them on information from voting. But when someone comes out and states they didn't really vote; why should anyone take them seriously?

Just going to the voting station, writing on the blank line below the other candidates "Mickey Mouse", "Captain Buck Rogers", or "Galactus" is sufficient. I'm fine if someone doesn't like the President not to vote for him in the last election. Or voted for Mr. Romney. But not bothering to vote at all?

I do not accept from people that state "Not voting is a form of free speech." No, its being lazy, plain and simple. I can understand and accept legitimate reasons for not voting. But not making any serious effort? An if bashing him this way, gets him to vote in the future, then I did my civil duty!

You know how long it takes me to go and vote? The longest record, is about 15 minutes. Ten of that was just reading through all the state ballot items and being on the fence with one of them for like five minutes. I got all the candidates in the first two minutes or so.



thishereboi -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 10:47:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The president's approval rating is in the mid to high forties. Congress is measured in single digits. Which would mean, Phydeaux, to be taken seriously, would need to slam his own 'party' as much as he slams the Democrats in Congress.

Heh good then. I'm perfectly content to slam both the republicans and my [ex] party, the Democrats. More to the point though, "slamming" them has zero value. I actually stopped VOTING for them. There ya go. This moderate should be getting your good housekeeping seal of approval.

Stop voting, eh? So what your saying is you really do not want a say in government. And that we can just ignore your rambles all together. Got it!

Out of that whole reply, this is the only point you can argue? But reading over it again, I totally understand. No one likes to be owned like that. And are you sure he meant he wasn't going to vote at all. I got the impression he just wasn't going to vote for the assholes in the republican or democratic parties. There are other options you know.


Actually I did a rebuttal of his post towards mine. Until I got down to this little gem. Thought about keeping the material with this one. But it seemed rather irrelevant. When one doesn't vote, why should we take them seriously in a discussion when politics is in the nature? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and do not interrogate them on information from voting. But when someone comes out and states they didn't really vote; why should anyone take them seriously?

Just going to the voting station, writing on the blank line below the other candidates "Mickey Mouse", "Captain Buck Rogers", or "Galactus" is sufficient. I'm fine if someone doesn't like the President not to vote for him in the last election. Or voted for Mr. Romney. But not bothering to vote at all?

I do not accept from people that state "Not voting is a form of free speech." No, its being lazy, plain and simple. I can understand and accept legitimate reasons for not voting. But not making any serious effort? An if bashing him this way, gets him to vote in the future, then I did my civil duty!

You know how long it takes me to go and vote? The longest record, is about 15 minutes. Ten of that was just reading through all the state ballot items and being on the fence with one of them for like five minutes. I got all the candidates in the first two minutes or so.


Yes, that's a nice little rant on people who don't vote. But since jeff has already stated that he does in fact vote, I am not sure what the point was. And if you responded to the rest of that post you must not have actually submitted it because it's not there. Unless of course you are trying to claim you answered it before he posted it and I just didn't go back far enough.



joether -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 10:53:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Yes, that's a nice little rant on people who don't vote. But since jeff has already stated that he does in fact vote, I am not sure what the point was. And if you responded to the rest of that post you must not have actually submitted it because it's not there. Unless of course you are trying to claim you answered it before he posted it and I just didn't go back far enough.


Actually, look at the post stamps. I saw yours, and that was considered 'most recent'. Apparently Jeff chimed in a minute before I posted (#17). So basically, He hit the submit button while I was still writing the most recent post.



So Jeff....my apologizes. It simply strikes a nerve in me, when people say they don't bother to vote, but yet, still demand that I or others should take what they say seriously.



JeffBC -> RE: America's (And chicago's) shrinking middle class (4/8/2014 11:21:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So Jeff....my apologizes. It simply strikes a nerve in me, when people say they don't bother to vote, but yet, still demand that I or others should take what they say seriously.

Apology accepted. In an attempt to get something useful out of that we can explore a bit.

There IS an element of "didn't vote" contained in my position. After all, we have a winner-take-all system in the US which basically enforces a two party system. In some tangible ways I am "throwing my vote away". I gave a lot of thought to that before I gave up on the Democrats totally. I mean, after all, as much as I think the democrats are enslaving us all which is pretty horrid, so are the republicans and the particular flavor of enslavement from republicans I find slightly more abhorrent (LOL, more abhorrent than human slavery is a statement all by itself).

The greens cannot win. I get that. But my hope is that if myself and others like me line up under their banner and if it's a large enough number then it'll draw the attention of one of the other two parties. It'll be "lost votes" that would be an automatic victory if someone enterprising Republican or Democrat can figure out how to claim them. Even better, those "lost votes" come with a roadmap of exactly HOW to claim them. The democrats are well positioned ideologically (look at Elizabeth Warren). The Republicans, on the other hand, are likely to get more and more desperate if ongoing demographics have their way so they may choose to go after this potential voting block.

Most likely is that America just continues it's wild freefall into an Oligarchical police state. From the standpoint of my own conscience I can say that at least I tried. And the thought that's gone into this play was a crapload more than "15 minutes".



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