Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:16:51 AM)

In a new book, excerpted in the Washington Post, Justice John Paul Stevens reflects on how judges have viewed the Second Amendment over time.

The first 10 amendments to the Constitution placed limits on the powers of the new federal government. Concern that a national standing army might pose a threat to the security of the separate states led to the adoption of the Second Amendment, which provides that “a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

For more than 200 years following the adoption of that amendment, federal judges uniformly understood that the right protected by that text was limited in two ways: First, it applied only to keeping and bearing arms for military purposes, and second, while it limited the power of the federal government, it did not impose any limit whatsoever on the power of states or local governments to regulate the ownership or use of firearms. Thus, in United States v. Miller, decided in 1939, the court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that sort of weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated Militia.”


* * *

He includes an interesting quote from former Chief Justice Warren Burger, a conservative appointed by Nixon.

Organizations such as the National Rifle Association disagreed with that position and mounted a vigorous campaign claiming that federal regulation of the use of firearms severely curtailed Americans’ Second Amendment rights. Five years after his retirement, during a 1991 appearance on “The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour,” Burger himself remarked that the Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

* * *

He also argues that the much-touted Heller decision was not as expansive as some might think.

Thus, even as generously construed in Heller, the Second Amendment provides no obstacle to regulations prohibiting the ownership or use of the sorts of weapons used in the tragic multiple killings in Virginia, Colorado and Arizona in recent years. The failure of Congress to take any action to minimize the risk of similar tragedies in the future cannot be blamed on the court’s decision in Heller.

* * *

Finally, he proposes clarifying the Second Amendment.

As a result of the rulings in Heller and McDonald, the Second Amendment, which was adopted to protect the states from federal interference with their power to ensure that their militias were “well regulated,” has given federal judges the ultimate power to determine the validity of state regulations of both civilian and militia-related uses of arms. That anomalous result can be avoided by adding five words to the text of the Second Amendment to make it unambiguously conform to the original intent of its draftsmen. As so amended, it would read:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed.”


You can find the complete essay at The Washington Post.

I'm particularly intrigued by how Miller was unanimous while Heller (which, as Stevens notes, did not overturn Heller) was 5-4. It sounds as if our national polarization extends even to the Supreme Court.

Insights, anyone?




Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:22:29 AM)

On your last point, that the Court is a politically stacked parody is hardly a secret.

Stevens discusses what I've always seen as the case, that states and municipalities can/should-be-free-to pass their own laws in accord with the concerns, situations, and wishes of the constituency. The NRA has long led a fight to take this right away from states and municipalities in the name of federal assertion of power.




TheHeretic -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:24:40 AM)

Thank God he's off the bench.




Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:26:00 AM)

It doesn't matter. His proposed additional phrase would never pass in this climate.

And he was a Republican appointee at that.





TheHeretic -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:44:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And he was a Republican appointee at that.



Given some of those Republican appointments, it's funny how the Democrats will still try to turn it into a point to be considered in Presidential campaigns.




Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:53:01 AM)

"Turn it into a point?" You mean like not getting others like Alito, Scalia, and Roberts?

Damn straight it's a campaign issue.




dcnovice -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 10:59:56 AM)

quote:

On your last point, that the Court is a politically stacked parody is hardly a secret.

Too true, alas. This just seemed a particularly striking example.




BitYakin -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 11:08:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

On your last point, that the Court is a politically stacked parody is hardly a secret.

Stevens discusses what I've always seen as the case, that states and municipalities can/should-be-free-to pass their own laws in accord with the concerns, situations, and wishes of the constituency. The NRA has long led a fight to take this right away from states and municipalities in the name of federal assertion of power.


hmmm how odd that you say that regarding GUNS, but when I say the SAME EXACT THING regarding abortion its all NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

then there's SLAVERY etc etc etc

yeahhhhh I like how you pick out part of the constitution you DON'T LIKE and say states should be able to make their own laws, but when it comes to things you LIKE them states better TOE THE LINE!

one might think you are a closet repub since they have argued SOVERGNTY of the STATES on the abortion issue for YEARS

fact is when it comes to things NOT SPECIFICLY COVERED in the constitution I AGREE 200%, unfortunately for you, ARMS is SPECIFICLY COVERED in the constitution




mnottertail -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 11:10:54 AM)

He isn't a closet one, he is a real one; as am I. Not these blathering morons who try to pass themselves off as republicans nowadays.





Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 11:41:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

On your last point, that the Court is a politically stacked parody is hardly a secret.

Stevens discusses what I've always seen as the case, that states and municipalities can/should-be-free-to pass their own laws in accord with the concerns, situations, and wishes of the constituency. The NRA has long led a fight to take this right away from states and municipalities in the name of federal assertion of power.


hmmm how odd that you say that regarding GUNS, but when I say the SAME EXACT THING regarding abortion its all NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

then there's SLAVERY etc etc etc

yeahhhhh I like how you pick out part of the constitution you DON'T LIKE and say states should be able to make their own laws, but when it comes to things you LIKE them states better TOE THE LINE!

one might think you are a closet repub since they have argued SOVERGNTY of the STATES on the abortion issue for YEARS

fact is when it comes to things NOT SPECIFICLY COVERED in the constitution I AGREE 200%, unfortunately for you, ARMS is SPECIFICLY COVERED in the constitution

If you're going to make up all my positions for me, there's not much need for us to talk, is there?

Seems the third longest serving justice in history agrees with me on this, so it's not exactly out of left field.

You've also omitted the *reasons* for those laws, which, silly me, I think are important. And we err on the side of protecting citizens. What that means will bring disagreement, sure.

Nor do I think it's as simple as picking which parts I "don't like." You've no idea what my position is here, again, first of all, and second, there's a disagreement about what that Amendment says, which I'm not going to rehash here again only to disagree again. Kirata made the best case for the "hands off" argument I've seen, but it's still not conclusive.

And Ron is right -- in less stupid times, I'd be a Republican. But all the Republicans are gone, and we're left with this caricature of screaming fiscal morons and single issue zombies.




joether -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 12:57:12 PM)

Quite the interesting study on the 2nd. Minus the bullshit and political drama typically found in conservative circles. The 2nd was created for the militia rather than the individual. When understood in that manner, the Heller case should be been decided like the lower courts. Mr. Heller's other firearm was not part of his duties with the local militia (i.e. the D.C. police department) and as such was not protected under the 2nd amendment. But the conservative justices handed the NRA, the Gun Industry, and the GOP a win. But doing an end-run-around the 2nd amendment is something they are *NOT* allowed to do.

You can not ignore the first half of the 2nd and reinterpret the remainder however you want. It then allows others to do the same to all the other amendments. How many here would like the police to ignore the first 2/3rds of the 8th amendment and reinterpret the remainder when they have you pulled over on the side of the road for a traffic stop? That's right, none of you!

Yes, the five words suggested would repair the 2nd to its correct form. Good luck getting it accomplished with the 'No Nothing Useful for America' Republican/Tea Party in Congress right now!




jlf1961 -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 1:09:12 PM)

American citizens have the right to own firearms, but not weapons of mass destruction, modern artillery, and other sundry items that would be useless in civilian hands....

Although with the large number of American Citizens with driver's licenses that cross multiple lanes of traffic to hit an exit ramp after they have almost passed the damn thing, or pass you then slam on breaks to make a right turn, exit the highway or just to be idiots, I feel that the 2nd amendment needs a a clause to allow sane drivers to own armored vehicles with rail guns. (actually the ATF has not yet ruled rail guns as illegal to own by private citizens...)




Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 1:12:06 PM)

I think they'd be hell on safety and fuel efficiency standards . . .




Kirata -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 1:52:56 PM)


Justice Stevens is rewriting history. I'm sorry, but I've looked into this six ways from Sunday. He is just plain and simply wrong.

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them ~Richard Henry Lee
The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals ~Albert Gallatin
The great object is that every man be armed ~Patrick Henry
The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed ~Alexander Hamilton
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself ~George Washington

State Supreme Counts have made the same interpretation...

To prohibit a citizen from wearing or carrying a war arm . . . is an unwarranted restriction upon the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege. ~Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

The provision in the Constitution granting the right to all persons to bear arms is a limitation upon the power of the Legislature to enact any law to the contrary. The exercise of a right guaranteed by the Constitution cannot be made subject to the will of the sheriff. ~Michigan Supreme Court, 1922

The Senate as well...

the "militia" itself referred to a concept of a universally armed people, not to any specifically organized unit... The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. ~Report of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on the Constitution, 1982

And SCOTUS in Heller...

The Court reached this conclusion after a textual analysis of the Amendment, an examination of the historical use of prefatory phrases in statutes, and a detailed exploration of the 18th century meaning of phrases found in the Amendment... Finally, the Court reviewed contemporaneous state constitutions, post-enactment commentary, and subsequent case law to conclude that the purpose of the right to keep and bear arms extended beyond the context of militia service to include self-defense. ~S. Doc. 112-9 - Constitution of the United States of America: Analysis, and Interpretation

It is simply inconceivable for anyone to argue that the Founders, who believed an armed populace to be the best guarantor against tyrannical government, intended to leave an individual's right to keep and bear arms up to the whim of state governments that could take it away with the mere flourish of a pen.

K.




jlf1961 -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 1:58:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think they'd be hell on safety and fuel efficiency standards . . .


Actually there are some newer composites that are lighter and stronger than steel plate. The problem is that there is no real demand for mass production which means at present they are expensive and rarely found outside the lab.

The army is playing with some of them on some test vehicles to determine if they would be better suited for the modern battlefield.




KenDckey -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 2:12:52 PM)

There is a move afoot for a Convention of the States under Article V of the Constitution. The entire issue can be resolved at that time. Personally, I own several different types of weapons. Some for hunting animals, some for home defense, some for personal defense (I saw a mountain lion when camping last weekend), and some for killing paper targets. I want to keep my weapons. I also own various knives, swords, pasta, and water. Maybe if we remove guns we should consider removing them as well, since all can kill.




Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 2:46:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think they'd be hell on safety and fuel efficiency standards . . .


Actually there are some newer composites that are lighter and stronger than steel plate. The problem is that there is no real demand for mass production which means at present they are expensive and rarely found outside the lab.

The army is playing with some of them on some test vehicles to determine if they would be better suited for the modern battlefield.

I looked up rail guns when you mentioned them and the army hasn't yet found a way to make them viable.




jlf1961 -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 2:58:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think they'd be hell on safety and fuel efficiency standards . . .


Actually there are some newer composites that are lighter and stronger than steel plate. The problem is that there is no real demand for mass production which means at present they are expensive and rarely found outside the lab.

The army is playing with some of them on some test vehicles to determine if they would be better suited for the modern battlefield.

I looked up rail guns when you mentioned them and the army hasn't yet found a way to make them viable.


The navy has.

But the military has a bad habit of thinking super size, using the Home Improvement philosophy. However, some home made rail guns will fire projectiles through solid concrete and they are being built suing the capacitors from disposable cameras.




BamaD -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 3:00:55 PM)

FR

Much is made of the fact that anti gun control arguments started
being made in the 20th century.
There is a good reason for this.
The gun control movement started then, you don't fight something that
doesn't exist.
First gun control was a racist move to disarm blacks so they couldn't
defend themselves against the Klan.
Then came the Sullivan Act designed to see to it that only Sullivan's thugs
and not his opponents had guns.
It would appear that Stevens has fallen prey to senility.





Musicmystery -> RE: Justice Stevens on the Second Amendment (4/12/2014 3:04:41 PM)

Good thing you're way smarter than him!

[8|]

If you want to disagree, make your case, as have others. To just dismiss it is childish.




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