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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/24/2014 9:45:26 PM   
BamaD


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FR

George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788: “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/24/2014 9:52:09 PM   
BamaD


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FR

Second Militia Act of 1792[edit]


Front page of a newspaper announcing the second Militia Act of 1792.
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 5:15:12 AM   
evesgrden


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wow... well there you have it.

Now... what are the regulations? And I don't mean that flippantly. In what way are they regulated; and are they part of that militia prior to being conscripted?


What about those 55+?
What about women?



And do you really like the idea of anyone being able to just buy any arms they want? Seriously? No restrictions? Should anyone be able to own armed blackhawks or stealths or drones. I'm not asking about the law or the amendment right now. I'm in asking in principle, where should a line be drawn, if at all. Or are you/we ok with a well financed Tim McVeigh or David Koresh buying what they want?

Let's face it: if a MIG or a Blackhawk took aim at your neighborhood, your AK47 would accomplish what? The arms referred to in the amendment are obsolete when it comes to war. It's not so much about pulling a trigger but designing software and entering the pin.

These and other issues have to be addressed when looking at the right to bear arms. I'm not suggesting getting rid of the right itself, but it might take some redefining. People own various weapons for sport, and for home or self-protection. But the right to bear arms is about defending ourselves from foreign invaders, not burglaries or bears.


Why am I for restrictions? Well I trust me to make good rational decisions and accept the fact that sometimes there are grim decisions which must be made. But there are simply way too many wackos out there who happen to be between 18 and 54 and would be all too happy to blow up someone because they got pissed off. Who think "more is better". Who think it will make them respected or god knows what. Should we make it easy for them to kill many quickly, efficiently with little effort or skill.. just because they're hotheads or bigots or... just plain nuts?

This is not just about a semantic and intent related analysis of the amendment. Along the same lines of "what you permit, you promote", it begs the question "what should be happening". These are real problems and a line has to be drawn somewhere. That's what the law is for.





_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 5:33:39 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Um... kid's are not exempt from income tax and must pay income tax and FICA if they earn a wage.

Um... I never said they weren't.

K.


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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 5:44:01 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788: “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”


Unfortunately for Mr. Mason, he's not living in 2014. Britain has largely removed firearms from the citizens hands, and they are not enslaved anymore than Americans. Crimea, once part of Ukraine had guns for its citizens; recently Russia took it over....

I'm sure I can find a few quotes from people in the past that support modern ideas as easily as you can. The point here is that Mr. Mason's 'observations' are not timeless, like say, the Theory of Gravity. Nor are they 'well informed', since modern 'slavery' does not need shackles and someone whipping them....its how corporations treat their employers during an employer's job market.


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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 5:45:32 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Second Militia Act of 1792[edit]

Front page of a newspaper announcing the second Militia Act of 1792.
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54


Which newspaper?


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 6:06:42 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Second Militia Act of 1792[edit]

Front page of a newspaper announcing the second Militia Act of 1792.
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54


Which newspaper?




The Bama Daily.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 6:12:03 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Second Militia Act of 1792[edit]

Front page of a newspaper announcing the second Militia Act of 1792.
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54


Which newspaper?




The Bama Daily.


Actually it was the Columbian Centinel and it only took about a minute on google to find. Not that you should let facts get in the way of a good slam, just sayin

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 7:51:55 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

wow... well there you have it.

Now... what are the regulations? And I don't mean that flippantly. In what way are they regulated; and are they part of that militia prior to being conscripted?


What about those 55+?
What about women?



And do you really like the idea of anyone being able to just buy any arms they want? Seriously? No restrictions? Should anyone be able to own armed blackhawks or stealths or drones. I'm not asking about the law or the amendment right now. I'm in asking in principle, where should a line be drawn, if at all. Or are you/we ok with a well financed Tim McVeigh or David Koresh buying what they want?

Let's face it: if a MIG or a Blackhawk took aim at your neighborhood, your AK47 would accomplish what? The arms referred to in the amendment are obsolete when it comes to war. It's not so much about pulling a trigger but designing software and entering the pin.

These and other issues have to be addressed when looking at the right to bear arms. I'm not suggesting getting rid of the right itself, but it might take some redefining. People own various weapons for sport, and for home or self-protection. But the right to bear arms is about defending ourselves from foreign invaders, not burglaries or bears.


Why am I for restrictions? Well I trust me to make good rational decisions and accept the fact that sometimes there are grim decisions which must be made. But there are simply way too many wackos out there who happen to be between 18 and 54 and would be all too happy to blow up someone because they got pissed off. Who think "more is better". Who think it will make them respected or god knows what. Should we make it easy for them to kill many quickly, efficiently with little effort or skill.. just because they're hotheads or bigots or... just plain nuts?

This is not just about a semantic and intent related analysis of the amendment. Along the same lines of "what you permit, you promote", it begs the question "what should be happening". These are real problems and a line has to be drawn somewhere. That's what the law is for.





No point in disarming people when they get to be 55.
Another popular red herring, it did not say "arms currently available" it said "arms" it assumed
advances in weapons.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to evesgrden)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 7:53:14 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788: “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”


Unfortunately for Mr. Mason, he's not living in 2014. Britain has largely removed firearms from the citizens hands, and they are not enslaved anymore than Americans. Crimea, once part of Ukraine had guns for its citizens; recently Russia took it over....

I'm sure I can find a few quotes from people in the past that support modern ideas as easily as you can. The point here is that Mr. Mason's 'observations' are not timeless, like say, the Theory of Gravity. Nor are they 'well informed', since modern 'slavery' does not need shackles and someone whipping them....its how corporations treat their employers during an employer's job market.



This enters the realm of I don't care what they wanted it to say, I want it to mean something
else now.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:01:59 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788: “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”


Unfortunately for Mr. Mason, he's not living in 2014. Britain has largely removed firearms from the citizens hands, and they are not enslaved anymore than Americans. Crimea, once part of Ukraine had guns for its citizens; recently Russia took it over....

I'm sure I can find a few quotes from people in the past that support modern ideas as easily as you can. The point here is that Mr. Mason's 'observations' are not timeless, like say, the Theory of Gravity. Nor are they 'well informed', since modern 'slavery' does not need shackles and someone whipping them....its how corporations treat their employers during an employer's job market.





Which of course proves nothing except that you are ignorant.

Lets consider. Mao (famous, world leader. Conquered China) said "power flows from the mouth of a gun".
You (weak, nobody) says well, really, who cares what you say.

Mao used the gun to prevail in china; mao used the gun to prevail in Vietnam. (Yet somehow he is not sufficiently 'modern' for you).

The presence (or absence) of guns is necessary but not sufficient. The fact that Britain is not now enslaved does not mean it is not possible - nor that the condition for it has not been made more feasible.

In summation: Do you suppose if ukraine had nuclear weapons that crimea would now be russian?

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 4/25/2014 8:12:22 AM >

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:08:18 AM   
Musicmystery


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It probably would. Ukraine's government is weak, and Russia has support within Ukraine. Many Ukrainians don't give a fuck either way.

Having nuclear weapons is very different from the decision to use them. It would mean the end of Ukraine, as Russia could wipe it out.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:15:05 AM   
Phydeaux


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Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It probably would. Ukraine's government is weak, and Russia has support within Ukraine. Many Ukrainians don't give a fuck either way.

Having nuclear weapons is very different from the decision to use them. It would mean the end of Ukraine, as Russia could wipe it out.


Lets agree instead to say "it possibly would".
The point being that weapons gave them the possibility of resistance. Just like guns give us the possibility of resistance.
It doesn't give us the political will to do so.

That takes a cause worth living and dying for.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:19:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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Aliens "might possibly would" as well.

Pure speculation on your point, and baseless.

A bunch of Crimeans who prefer to be part of Russia isn't "worth living and dying for."

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:26:47 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Aliens "might possibly would" as well.

Pure speculation on your point, and baseless.

A bunch of Crimeans who prefer to be part of Russia isn't "worth living and dying for."



Nuclear weapons *might* have preserved the integrity of the Ukraine - which was the point I made and the point you agreed with.

The rest of your commentary was nattering nabobisms.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:36:28 AM   
Musicmystery


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Since you're fond of questioning intelligence, take a look in your mirror. I said just the opposite.

Speculation is pointless and silly -- anything "might" happen...nothing at all to do with reason and logic. You *might* have a super-model fall for you later today. You probably shouldn't count on that as a possibility when planning your day.

And you've simply ignored the points that nailed you. Not very reasonable either. Reality is, nations with nukes aren't quick to use them (only one nation has ever done that), and reality is, it's not like Russia picked an island at random and invaded.

I think we're done here. I'm not fond of pointless discussion.

Here's a lesson in science/reason/logic vs. sensational speculation:
http://producer.csi.edu/cdraney/archive-courses/fall07/engl102/e-texts/gould-essay.pdf



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 4/25/2014 8:38:09 AM >

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 8:43:24 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Since you're fond of questioning intelligence, take a look in your mirror. I said just the opposite.

Speculation is pointless and silly -- anything "might" happen...nothing at all to do with reason and logic. You *might* have a super-model fall for you later today. You probably shouldn't count on that as a possibility when planning your day.

And you've simply ignored the points that nailed you. Not very reasonable either. Reality is, nations with nukes aren't quick to use them (only one nation has ever done that), and reality is, it's not like Russia picked an island at random and invaded.

I think we're done here. I'm not fond of pointless discussion.

Here's a lesson in science/reason/logic vs. sensational speculation:
http://producer.csi.edu/cdraney/archive-courses/fall07/engl102/e-texts/gould-essay.pdf




Feel free to quit anytime.

The *fact* is that the 'possibility' of being russian is a better outcome for ukraine than fact that occured.
Something that weapons would have afforded.

Just as Ukrainian existence hangs in the balance. Although personally, I think Putin doesn't want to have to figure out what to do with a few million ukrainians that don't like him.

Putin got crimea which he wanted. The secondary objectives of some pipeline nexuses and heavy industry might also be interesting. Plus he served notice to moldavia, etc.

Europe has just gotten a far firmer eastern border.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 4:46:32 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

No point in disarming people when they get to be 55.





quote:

This enters the realm of I don't care what they wanted it to say, I want it to mean something
else now.


_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 5:28:27 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Second Militia Act of 1792[edit]

Front page of a newspaper announcing the second Militia Act of 1792.
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54


Which newspaper?




The Bama Daily.


Actually it was the Columbian Centinel and it only took about a minute on google to find. Not that you should let facts get in the way of a good slam, just sayin



So he quoted google....... I knew that already brains.

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RE: What if it wasn't a gun? - 4/25/2014 6:23:24 PM   
RottenJohnny


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What if it wasn't a gun...again? A blurb from my homepage...

HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) — A 16-year-old girl was stabbed to death inside a Connecticut high school Friday, and police were investigating whether a boy attacked her after she turned down an invitation to be his prom date.

Maren Sanchez was stabbed in a hallway of Jonathan Law High School in Milford, about an hour's drive from New York City, around 7:15 a.m. Staff members and paramedics performed life-saving measures on the girl, but she was pronounced dead at a hospital, police said.

The 16-year-old boy was charged with murder as a juvenile offender. Police said the suspect, whose name was not released, was being held Friday afternoon in police custody at a medical facility and could be charged later as an adult.

Imani Langston, who describes herself as one of Sanchez's best friends, said students were gathered in an auditorium when a teacher came and told them Sanchez had been stabbed.

"She basically just explained to us that Maren Sanchez got stabbed in the throat for saying no about going to prom" with the suspect, she said.

Langston said she saw the suspect taken out of the school in handcuffs. She said Sanchez and the boy were friends but had never dated. She said Sanchez had helped to organize the junior prom and was looking forward to attending with her boyfriend. The dance was scheduled for Friday night but was postponed because of the stabbing.

In class on Thursday, Sanchez "told me about her prom dress, she told me how she got asked to prom," Langston said. "We were just laughing, talking about what we were going to do when we got there, how many pictures we were going to take."

Sanchez, a junior, was in the National Honor Society and engaged in school activities, schools Superintendent Elizabeth Feser said. Students were released from school early, and officials were offering counseling services.

"We are obviously devastated by the loss of one of our students, Maren Sanchez," Feser said at a news conference. "She was a 16-year-old junior — vibrant, very, very involved in Jonathan Law High School, an incredible contributor, someone who was loved and respected."

A cousin of Sanchez, Edward Kovac, said the family is shocked and devastated. He described her as a "bright light full of hopes and dreams" as he read from a family statement and said more needs to be done to ensure young people are protected from attacks at school.

Students described an emotional, somewhat chaotic scene as police and paramedics swarmed the school.

Sarah Golden, a 14-year-old freshman, said she was sitting in the main lobby with friends when she was startled by several security guards running down the hall. Then she heard a voice on a walkie-talkie say that someone had been strangled.

"I was trying not to freak out because it was really scary," Sarah said. "I just don't believe that something like that happened at my school. It's something that seems so unreal."

Golden's 17-year-old sister, Rebecca, a senior at the school, said she saw the victim lying on the floor surrounded by teachers, some of whom were crying. She said she didn't know what was going on at the time, and teachers directed her away from the victim.

Police Chief Keith Mello said investigators were looking into the reports involving the prom rejection.

"This is something that everybody wants to get to the bottom of and find out why it happened, how it happened and what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen again," he said.

Mello said town schools are very safe, despite not having metal detectors. He said police will review surveillance camera footage for evidence.

Milford police said late Friday that they recovered a knife from the crime scene and executed at a search warrant at the suspect's home. An arraignment is scheduled for Monday in New Haven.

Janet Golden, Sarah and Rebecca's mother and a Milford alderman, said she rushed to the school to get her daughters. She said the stabbing most likely will result in more community discussions about school security, like those that were spurred by the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown in December 2012.

"How can we create an environment that's safe for our children?" Janet Golden asked. "My daughter actually saw the victim lying on the floor, so I'm dealing with kids that are pretty traumatized now. I can't believe this is happening in our town. It's frightening."




_____________________________

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"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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