RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 1:15:33 PM)


~ FR ~

One curious thing to consider about capital punishment is that even those who support it don't want to do it. Instead, we've invented all manner of contraptions to separate us from the act. We pull a lever or push a button, and some infernal machine does the killing. And personally, I think the whole business qualifies as "cruel and unusual."

If we don't have the stomach to stand a man up in the light of day and shoot him, we should stop kidding ourselves.

K.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 1:23:01 PM)

Your last statement (once again) gave me some pause but, I have an internal question that I'll ask you:

I knew a guy who was absolutely guilty of child molestation. I knew the family.

Once the story came out, I was able to put pieces of the puzzle together and I realized that it had been going on, right under a bunch of peoples' noses. The creep was guilty.

Had the court asked me to put a bullet in his brain, personally, I'd have gladly done it.

Have you never had a situation at least somewhat similar? Have you never known some dirt bag that needed to be eradicated?







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



thompsonx -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 1:30:09 PM)

Have you never known some dirt bag that needed to be eradicated?

What does that make the eradicator?
You being a catholic I would have thought that would be your god's job and not yours.



Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 1:32:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Had the court asked me to put a bullet in his brain, personally, I'd have gladly done it.

Suppose a bunch of people told you some guy was guilty. You didn't know whether he was or not, but they wanted you to kill him anyway. Would you step right up?

K.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 1:47:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Suppose a bunch of people told you some guy was guilty. You didn't know whether he was or not, but they wanted you to kill him anyway. Would you step right up?

K.




I admit; that's a different question. I've been thinking about "Michael the Executioner" since I posted my question to you.

In all honesty, with the way the system is now, I don't think I could do that. You're right.

ETA: Having said that, years ago, I stopped carrying a weapon because I knew I was no longer willing to take a life.

... aaaaaand ... I notice you didn't answer my question, K [:D]








Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 2:17:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

One curious thing to consider about capital punishment is that even those who support it don't want to do it. Instead, we've invented all manner of contraptions to separate us from the act. We pull a lever or push a button, and some infernal machine does the killing. And personally, I think the whole business qualifies as "cruel and unusual."

If we don't have the stomach to stand a man up in the light of day and shoot him, we should stop kidding ourselves.

K.


I could very easily feed the 2 maggots that brutally murdered my aunt a good dose of lead and go home and cook supper and sleep like a baby.

The fact that I know I could do that is kinda scary to me actually, but they do not deserve to live.



Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 2:22:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I notice you didn't answer my question, K

I'm not sure I have an answer, DS.

K.







DaddySatyr -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 3:48:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I'm not sure I have an answer, DS.

K.







I wish you hadn't changed this. I was giving some serious thought to your idea (the six people) and maybe that isn't such a bad one.







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



TheHeretic -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 7:06:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Now stop dodging the question, how many innocent people must be executed before you will change your mind on the death penalty?



But I have answered your little "gotcha" question that you pulled from a talking points email, Ken. I've given you the same answer every time you've tried it. It just isn't working, and you aren't sure how to deal with that. Maybe get some better talking points emails? Maybe stay in the shallow end of the pool?

Is there even a little twitch on your ironicator when you claim to be taking the moral position, but use such sleazy slurs and tactics to try and hold it? You become that which you claim to oppose, and your character is clear to all.

It's not ok, but I understand. You can't get anywhere by talking about the real issue because deep down, you know you will lose every single time. You know that those who commit acts of pure evil need to die for their crimes.

Some crimes demand the ultimate penalty. It isn't about deterrence, even if it is a rock solid way to prevent repeat offences. It isn't about vengeance. It is justice, and you are afraid of that. It's a little too real for your coddled worldview. Too fucking bad.



DomKen -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 7:32:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Now stop dodging the question, how many innocent people must be executed before you will change your mind on the death penalty?



But I have answered your little "gotcha" question that you pulled from a talking points email, Ken. I've given you the same answer every time you've tried it. It just isn't working, and you aren't sure how to deal with that. Maybe get some better talking points emails? Maybe stay in the shallow end of the pool?

Is there even a little twitch on your ironicator when you claim to be taking the moral position, but use such sleazy slurs and tactics to try and hold it? You become that which you claim to oppose, and your character is clear to all.

It's not ok, but I understand. You can't get anywhere by talking about the real issue because deep down, you know you will lose every single time. You know that those who commit acts of pure evil need to die for their crimes.

Some crimes demand the ultimate penalty. It isn't about deterrence, even if it is a rock solid way to prevent repeat offences. It isn't about vengeance. It is justice, and you are afraid of that. It's a little too real for your coddled worldview. Too fucking bad.

There is nothing sleazy or ironic about asking how many innocent people must die before you will change your mind. It is a perfectly legitimate question.

Either you are fine with innocent people being put to death or there is a finite limit on your tolerance for the execution of innocent people. I simply want to know which it is.

And no, you've never answered the question and no, I didn't get the question from anywhere.



SadistDave -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 7:54:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Dead people don't commit crimes. That fact alone is pretty compelling evidence that the death penalty does, in fact, deter crime.

Incarceration would achieve the same effect at a lower cost...another one of those tax and spenders[8|]


Bullshit. Bullets are cheap. Rope is slightly more expensive, but it can be re-used.

-SD-



SadistDave -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 8:06:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you volunteer your most loved to be the next one? If not why not?


To date, none of my loved ones are such fucked up individuals that they would commit a crime that carries the death sentence OR to be in a position where they might be mistaken as being guilty of crimes they did not commit. I don't forsee it being a problem in the future. Why? Because my family isn't full of punks.

Obviously you've considered the question yourself, so maybe you should consider how fucked up your family is instead.

Just wanted to establish the extent of your bigotry.


I don't think that word means what you think it means... not that that's surprising coming from you.

Stating that I'm fine with someone who has been convicted and sentenced to death actually being put to death has nothing to do with bigotry. This idiotic belief that someone should be considered innocent AFTER being convicted is probably the mark of some sort of mild mental retardation. That's the only thing that would explain your inability to grasp the distinction.

-SD-




DaddySatyr -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 9:16:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

This idiotic belief that someone should be considered innocent AFTER being convicted is probably the mark of some sort of mild mental retardation. That's the only thing that would explain your inability to grasp the distinction.

-SD-





I think this photo from liberlogic.com sums up the left view:

[image]local://upfiles/1271250/D2E2CFA21A4744C982F2BBBCB0A44B5E.jpg[/image]

ETA: Just substitute the word "innocent" for "child"







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



TheHeretic -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 9:20:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



One curious thing to consider about capital punishment is that even those who support it don't want to do it. Instead, we've invented all manner of contraptions to separate us from the act. We pull a lever or push a button, and some infernal machine does the killing. And personally, I think the whole business qualifies as "cruel and unusual."

If we don't have the stomach to stand a man up in the light of day and shoot him, we should stop kidding ourselves.

K.




It should be impersonal, Kirata. An execution isn't an individual act, it is an expression of the social collective, just as throwing a person in a cage for a set period of time, or until they die, is.

You may not have intended it to be taken this way, but I like your characterization of the infernal machine. I want the gallows they build for Nidal Hasan to be in complete compliance with the ADA.



TheHeretic -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 9:27:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And no, you've never answered the question



Sounds like a comprehension problem to me, then. No point trying to teach a pig to sing.








tweakabelle -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/2/2014 11:45:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

One curious thing to consider about capital punishment is that even those who support it don't want to do it. Instead, we've invented all manner of contraptions to separate us from the act.
K.


I'm not sure that the reluctance you describe is the case.

Judging from the posts here, there doesn't appear to be any shortage of people lining up to pull the plug on whoever is on Death Row in their locality. Indeed there seems to be a positive appetite, an enthusiasm to perform the deed exhibited by those posters. It's easy to talk of course and it's probably just some small-minded people trying to big note themselves, especially as we all know that there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of them ever being called upon to actually perform the deed and execute someone. From where I sit, they look like they're involved in some weird macho pissing contest.

It does seem to be a feature of this topic that many (but not all) pro-death people substitute emotional reactions for thinking processes in their contributions to the topic. One poster even concedes that there is no deterrent value in capital punishment, claiming instead that it 'justice', as though taking a life somehow equalises things, instead of merely producing another corpse. Justice isn't a zero-sum game. Clearly, he's not talking about justice, he is talking vengeance. And if there is no deterrent value in capital punishment, what rational reason remains for advocating it?

Some anti-capital punishment people display emotional thinking too. It doesn't take a Freud to decipher this thinking. The idea of taking a life is abhorrent to most people in most circumstances so they are reluctant to countenance taking life in their name. They're uncomfortable with someone being killed on their behalf.

What is it about this subject that evokes such emotional reactions, instead of calm, measured rational thought? What emotions are speaking to us beneath the various viewpoints being offered here? And if we strip away the emotional reactions what facts remain for our consideration?



Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/3/2014 12:04:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

if we strip away the emotional reactions what facts remain for our consideration?

The fact that some people need to be removed from society, preferably in way that doesn't make them a burden to it.

Mister Jones, we've caught the man who raped and murdered your wife and daughter, and he has been tried and found guilty. The punishment handed down is for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, and for you to pay the cost of his food, shelter, and medical needs for the rest of his life. Thank you very much for reporting this crime to us, and have a nice day.

K.



tweakabelle -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/3/2014 12:15:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

if we strip away the emotional reactions what facts remain for our consideration?

The fact that some people need to be removed from society, preferably in way that doesn't make them a burden to it.

Mister Jones, we've caught the man who raped and murdered your wife and daughter, and he has been tried and found guilty. The punishment handed down is for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, and for you to pay the cost of his food, shelter, and medical needs for the rest of his life. Thank you very much for reporting this crime to us, and have a nice day.

K.


If it all reduces to dollars and cents, as your post seems to suggest, then what value is a human life?

And it ought to be a simple matter to put those behind bars to some kind of useful employment to earn their keep and repay their debt to society.



Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/3/2014 12:35:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

it ought to be a simple matter to put those behind bars to some kind of useful employment to earn their keep and repay their debt to society.

So essentially slave labor then, work or starve. Well that's an enlightened and progressive idea. But, of course, it would take a lot of jobs off the market. I rather think that once an individual's criminality reaches a certain level, we should revoke their citizenship and deport them instead.

I'm quite sure we could find countries willing to accept them in return for enhancements to the right bank accounts. Then we could relocate the unneeded prison guards to our Mexican border, transfer their employment to ICE, and improve our security while saving a bundle in the bargain.

K.



Kirata -> RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched (5/3/2014 1:33:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Mister Jones, we've caught the man who raped and murdered your wife and daughter, and he has been tried and found guilty. The punishment handed down is for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, and for you to pay the cost of his food, shelter, and medical needs for the rest of his life. Thank you very much for reporting this crime to us, and have a nice day.

If it all reduces to dollars and cents, as your post seems to suggest...

Well maybe that's all you see, but for the record I was "suggesting" the fucking insanity of it.

K.



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