quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sounds like some of those reports of militia behaving in an evil and hateful manner finally got to the Oath Keepers. Terrorizing US Citizens all in the name of 'getting even with the US Government' is NOT remotely a good thing. That employees at a local Holiday Inn were threaten with their lives by militia members for serving rooms to BLM employees. That checkpoints were set up, states 'its OK for militias to do it, but not the government', undermines their position. That they are behaving exactly as they say the US Government does towards US Citizens: As thugs, tyrants, and evil-doers. The Oath Keepers, if their information is true, are either current or former US Military. The only way they could protest all of these acts of tyranny by other militias around them, was to leave.

What remains are the ones helping the gun controllers out in a major way. That those arms are used not for self defense, target shooting, reenactments, or hunting; but for terrorizing US Citizens. Added that these pseudo-militias are aiding a known criminal and bigot, only further undermines any position they might have been taken seriously on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Sounds like some of those reports of militia behaving in an evil and hateful manner finally got to the Oath Keepers. Terrorizing US Citizens all in the name of 'getting even with the US Government' is NOT remotely a good thing. That employees at a local Holiday Inn were threaten with their lives by militia members for serving rooms to BLM employees. That checkpoints were set up, states 'its OK for militias to do it, but not the government', undermines their position. That they are behaving exactly as they say the US Government does towards US Citizens: As thugs, tyrants, and evil-doers. The Oath Keepers, if their information is true, are either current or former US Military. The only way they could protest all of these acts of tyranny by other militias around them, was to leave.

What remains are the ones helping the gun controllers out in a major way. That those arms are used not for self defense, target shooting, reenactments, or hunting; but for terrorizing US Citizens. Added that these pseudo-militias are aiding a known criminal and bigot, only further undermines any position they might have been taken seriously on.

None of the reports about checkpoints has been substantiated, the bomb threats called into the hotel where BLM officers were staying have not been proven to have come from the militia groups at the Bundy ranch, and aside from the fact that their continued presence has residents of the area on edge, and reports of lost revenues, which again the totals have not been proven, are all we are hearing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, I really hate to break the news to you folks, but many people in rural areas and small towns west of the Mississippi distrust the government. While Bunkerville residents might not support Bundy and his free grazing of cattle, they are not entirely trusting of the government for a variety of reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Forget to get the paperwork in on time when you buy a large amount of ammonia nitrate fertilizer and you have the ATF and DOJ all up in your shit, whether or not the delay was your fault. This gets real interesting if you have a large operation and have more than 500 gallons of diesel on the property to fuel farm equipment.

Of course, you could be doing a favor for a neighbor and you pay for a large amount of fertilizer for the neighbor because he has a snag in cash flow, and the ATF shows up at your doorstep. I had that happen last year. I wrote a check for 5 thousand to cover the cost of a bulk shipment of fertilizer for a neighbor, who had all the proper paperwork, but since I was not on said paperwork, I had some ATF assholes at my place looking for bulk fertilizer, then at my other place looking for it.

Than ran the serial numbers on every gun I own, every lot number of bulk ammo, the same on the gun powder I use to load my own rounds, the ran back ground checks on me and a few others.

It did not matter that the billing address was different from the delivery address on the paper work. Any dumbfuck Cletus P. Coaltrain or Barney Fife could read that and then go to the neighbors place and check and see if the fertilizer was really there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Sounds like some of those reports of militia behaving in an evil and hateful manner finally got to the Oath Keepers. Terrorizing US Citizens all in the name of 'getting even with the US Government' is NOT remotely a good thing. That employees at a local Holiday Inn were threaten with their lives by militia members for serving rooms to BLM employees. That checkpoints were set up, states 'its OK for militias to do it, but not the government', undermines their position. That they are behaving exactly as they say the US Government does towards US Citizens: As thugs, tyrants, and evil-doers. The Oath Keepers, if their information is true, are either current or former US Military. The only way they could protest all of these acts of tyranny by other militias around them, was to leave.

What remains are the ones helping the gun controllers out in a major way. That those arms are used not for self defense, target shooting, reenactments, or hunting; but for terrorizing US Citizens. Added that these pseudo-militias are aiding a known criminal and bigot, only further undermines any position they might have been taken seriously on.

None of the reports about checkpoints has been substantiated, the bomb threats called into the hotel where BLM officers were staying have not been proven to have come from the militia groups at the Bundy ranch, and aside from the fact that their continued presence has residents of the area on edge, and reports of lost revenues, which again the totals have not been proven, are all we are hearing.

None, according to law enforcement who are still doing the research right now. Or are you going to tell me, every member of those militias is 100% honest and law abiding? Or the majority of them? How about half of them? one quarter? 10%?

Defending the Militias as all angels is a bit hard to be taken seriously given the evidence so far. I understand your desire to see them in the most positive light. But reality seems to be the locals could be telling the truth. What do the locals have to gain by telling out right lies? Can you address that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, I really hate to break the news to you folks, but many people in rural areas and small towns west of the Mississippi distrust the government. While Bunkerville residents might not support Bundy and his free grazing of cattle, they are not entirely trusting of the government for a variety of reasons.

For some Americans that could be true, and for many others that is not. There are many that come from those states west of the Mississippi river that join the US Military each year. Who fully-funds the US Military? The US Government. Why join an institution of an organization that they disagree with?

But right now, it seems the Bundy and militia are the greater evil right now. So, 'The enemy of my enemy, is really my friend". Most Americans west of the Mississippi River have a stable amount of trust and loyalty with the United States of America. Your forgetting that Washington, Oregon and California, and Hawaii are ALSO west of the Mississippi River....

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Forget to get the paperwork in on time when you buy a large amount of ammonia nitrate fertilizer and you have the ATF and DOJ all up in your shit, whether or not the delay was your fault. This gets real interesting if you have a large operation and have more than 500 gallons of diesel on the property to fuel farm equipment.

Of course, you could be doing a favor for a neighbor and you pay for a large amount of fertilizer for the neighbor because he has a snag in cash flow, and the ATF shows up at your doorstep. I had that happen last year. I wrote a check for 5 thousand to cover the cost of a bulk shipment of fertilizer for a neighbor, who had all the proper paperwork, but since I was not on said paperwork, I had some ATF assholes at my place looking for bulk fertilizer, then at my other place looking for it.

Than ran the serial numbers on every gun I own, every lot number of bulk ammo, the same on the gun powder I use to load my own rounds, the ran back ground checks on me and a few others.

It did not matter that the billing address was different from the delivery address on the paper work. Any dumbfuck Cletus P. Coaltrain or Barney Fife could read that and then go to the neighbors place and check and see if the fertilizer was really there.

1 ) What does this long and drawn out rant have to do with the thread's topic?
2 ) Your going to blame the US Government for some individual forgetting to log the correct paperwork on time, as required by law?
3 ) I suspect your attitude towards the ATF agent was rude at best and hostile at worst. What happens when someone is rude and/or hostile to you? Do you get defensive?
4 ) Laws and regulations are to be followed. That is what society has decided on. When they are not, a penalty generally takes place towards the offender.
5 ) This story of yours seems to be very limited. In that your telling only one side of the story and not the full, 100% side of the story. Not my nor anyone else's businesses what the full story is. An if your not giving the 100% side of the story, its fair to ask what you are hiding? Most likely the reason(s) for a federal agent showing up at your door in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Sounds like some of those reports of militia behaving in an evil and hateful manner finally got to the Oath Keepers. Terrorizing US Citizens all in the name of 'getting even with the US Government' is NOT remotely a good thing. That employees at a local Holiday Inn were threaten with their lives by militia members for serving rooms to BLM employees. That checkpoints were set up, states 'its OK for militias to do it, but not the government', undermines their position. That they are behaving exactly as they say the US Government does towards US Citizens: As thugs, tyrants, and evil-doers. The Oath Keepers, if their information is true, are either current or former US Military. The only way they could protest all of these acts of tyranny by other militias around them, was to leave.
What remains are the ones helping the gun controllers out in a major way. That those arms are used not for self defense, target shooting, reenactments, or hunting; but for terrorizing US Citizens. Added that these pseudo-militias are aiding a known criminal and bigot, only further undermines any position they might have been taken seriously on.

None of the reports about checkpoints has been substantiated, the bomb threats called into the hotel where BLM officers were staying have not been proven to have come from the militia groups at the Bundy ranch, and aside from the fact that their continued presence has residents of the area on edge, and reports of lost revenues, which again the totals have not been proven, are all we are hearing.

None, according to law enforcement who are still doing the research right now. Or are you going to tell me, every member of those militias is 100% honest and law abiding? Or the majority of them? How about half of them? one quarter? 10%?

quote:

Defending the Militias as all angels is a bit hard to be taken seriously given the evidence so far. I understand your desire to see them in the most positive light. But reality seems to be the locals could be telling the truth. What do the locals have to gain by telling out right lies? Can you address that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, I really hate to break the news to you folks, but many people in rural areas and small towns west of the Mississippi distrust the government. While Bunkerville residents might not support Bundy and his free grazing of cattle, they are not entirely trusting of the government for a variety of reasons.

For some Americans that could be true, and for many others that is not. There are many that come from those states west of the Mississippi river that join the US Military each year. Who fully-funds the US Military? The US Government. Why join an institution of an organization that they disagree with?
But right now, it seems the Bundy and militia are the greater evil right now. So, 'The enemy of my enemy, is really my friend". Most Americans west of the Mississippi River have a stable amount of trust and loyalty with the United States of America. Your forgetting that Washington, Oregon and California, and Hawaii are ALSO west of the Mississippi River....

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Forget to get the paperwork in on time when you buy a large amount of ammonia nitrate fertilizer and you have the ATF and DOJ all up in your shit, whether or not the delay was your fault. This gets real interesting if you have a large operation and have more than 500 gallons of diesel on the property to fuel farm equipment.
Of course, you could be doing a favor for a neighbor and you pay for a large amount of fertilizer for the neighbor because he has a snag in cash flow, and the ATF shows up at your doorstep. I had that happen last year. I wrote a check for 5 thousand to cover the cost of a bulk shipment of fertilizer for a neighbor, who had all the proper paperwork, but since I was not on said paperwork, I had some ATF assholes at my place looking for bulk fertilizer, then at my other place looking for it.
Than ran the serial numbers on every gun I own, every lot number of bulk ammo, the same on the gun powder I use to load my own rounds, the ran back ground checks on me and a few others.
It did not matter that the billing address was different from the delivery address on the paper work. Any dumbfuck Cletus P. Coaltrain or Barney Fife could read that and then go to the neighbors place and check and see if the fertilizer was really there.

1 ) What does this long and drawn out rant have to do with the thread's topic?
2 ) Your going to blame the US Government for some individual forgetting to log the correct paperwork on time, as required by law?
3 ) I suspect your attitude towards the ATF agent was rude at best and hostile at worst. What happens when someone is rude and/or hostile to you? Do you get defensive?
4 ) Laws and regulations are to be followed. That is what society has decided on. When they are not, a penalty generally takes place towards the offender.
5 ) This story of yours seems to be very limited. In that your telling only one side of the story and not the full, 100% side of the story. Not my nor anyone else's businesses what the full story is. An if your not giving the 100% side of the story, its fair to ask what you are hiding? Most likely the reason(s) for a federal agent showing up at your door in the first place.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
First, residents in Bunkerville near the Bundy ranch have reported no armed checkpoints, and reporters from various news networks have not seen any armed checkpoints, the only checkpoint is at the entrance to the Bundy property and they are not armed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
In four weeks, at the very least, investigators should have some ideas of where the call originated from or if it came from a cell phone. However, the investigators have not even been able to find anyone that can verify threats were even made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Bunkerville residents are not all living in fear, most in fact have mixed emotions about the militia being there. The militia have to feed themselves, so they have to buy food, so they are buying local.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You better do some serious fact checks on the feelings of the population of the western states toward the federal government.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I am not saying they are right, but that no one has been able to produce videos of checkpoints, records of calls made that might or might not have been made to convey bomb threats, or for that matter, that the militia members are even operating off Bundy's property.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Until shots are fired, and it is clear who fired first, trying to say these men and women are behaving in ways that might cause harm to locals is bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Until there is definite proof, you have already decided they are guilty, thus eliminating the need for a trial. Send in the marines go shoot em all and let god sort em out. Thus your opinions are taken care of and gun carrying yahoos are dead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

Defending the Militias as all angels is a bit hard to be taken seriously given the evidence so far. I understand your desire to see them in the most positive light. But reality seems to be the locals could be telling the truth. What do the locals have to gain by telling out right lies? Can you address that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, I really hate to break the news to you folks, but many people in rural areas and small towns west of the Mississippi distrust the government. While Bunkerville residents might not support Bundy and his free grazing of cattle, they are not entirely trusting of the government for a variety of reasons.

For some Americans that could be true, and for many others that is not. There are many that come from those states west of the Mississippi river that join the US Military each year. Who fully-funds the US Military? The US Government. Why join an institution of an organization that they disagree with?
But right now, it seems the Bundy and militia are the greater evil right now. So, 'The enemy of my enemy, is really my friend". Most Americans west of the Mississippi River have a stable amount of trust and loyalty with the United States of America. Your forgetting that Washington, Oregon and California, and Hawaii are ALSO west of the Mississippi River....

Yet, they still don't completely trust the US Government. Then, you have the Oathkeepers who claim to stand by the oath they took to uphold the Constitution. Those in the US Military don't have to agree with everything the US Government does, but they do have to honor their oath.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
There are two arguments that I'm not listing here, DS. An if you think you won either argument, you would be....wrong. In the interest of 'staying on topic' I've chosen not to pursue either argument further.
I try to have respect for you and jlf1961. We disagree on shit here and there.
I'm pointing out that jlf1961's story, while infuriating to anyone catch in the same situation, has nothing to do with the thread itself. We all tend to go off on tangents, and I seem to be one of the only ones that tries to keep the thread on topic. Or are you ok with a 'government' forcing the thread back on topic with golden emails sent to all the offending parties?

quote:

The US Military does not take sides in political arenas. It does nothing but create more problems in the long wrong. That's wisdom on display. Regardless of our political viewpoints, most Americans give a hell of a lot of respect for the men and women of the armed forces.
If the US Government, ordered the US Military into action, on American soil (passing posse comitatus...spelling?), those that disagree with it, would still be forced into action. That's their job. An those that fail to follow orders are penalized for their words/actions. The military court is not very forgiving on someone that doesn't obey a direct order from a commanding officer during a time of armed conflict (i.e. battle).
The Oath Keepers, if I read their information right, are a combination of mostly former US Military with some actively serving soldiers/sailors. Their oath is not grounded in legal documents like the US Military.
An I'll take it as a educated guess....NO ONE...wants things at that location escalating into an armed conflict. Not with law enforcement and especially, not with the US Military.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

the only way the US military can get involved is if Obama declares that a state of civil war exists and acts accordingly.

Other than patrolling the borders, the US military is unable to act inside the US except in the even of armed insurrection or civil war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

the only way the US military can get involved is if Obama declares that a state of civil war exists and acts accordingly.

Other than patrolling the borders, the US military is unable to act inside the US except in the even of armed insurrection or civil war.

I freely admit that I am not a scholar on Constitutional Law or the finer points of many (probably most) U.S. laws. The question about U.S. troops not being used against U.S. citizens brought to mind the fact that it was National Guard troops that killed 4 students at Kent State University, and I don't remember any legal ramifications due to that having happened.

It was not the president that called out the national guard in that incident, it was the governor.

So, I did a bit of Internet searching and found this tidbit. It was written and passed many years later than Kent State, and so would not have applied in that circumstance, but it was written several years after, and I believe somewhat in response to the attack of 9/11.

So, I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Here is a link to the page where I found it: http://jontaplin.com/2008/09/25/is-posse-comitatus-no-longer-the-law/

And here is partial text:

Recently, Congress passed a controversial bill which grants the President the right to commandeer Federal or even state National Guard Troops and use them inside the United States. This bill, entitled the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR), contains a provision, (Section 1076) which allows the President to:
“…employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to…
1. restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States…, where the President determines that,…domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order;

Which is what gave President Bush the power to call up National Guard units from other states to aid in the aftermath of Katrina since the Louisiana national guard units were deployed in Iraq.

2. suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy..

Which is exactly what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

the only way the US military can get involved is if Obama declares that a state of civil war exists and acts accordingly.

Other than patrolling the borders, the US military is unable to act inside the US except in the even of armed insurrection or civil war.

I freely admit that I am not a scholar on Constitutional Law or the finer points of many (probably most) U.S. laws. The question about U.S. troops not being used against U.S. citizens brought to mind the fact that it was National Guard troops that killed 4 students at Kent State University, and I don't remember any legal ramifications due to that having happened.

So, I did a bit of Internet searching and found this tidbit. It was written and passed many years later than Kent State, and so would not have applied in that circumstance, but it was written several years after, and I believe somewhat in response to the attack of 9/11.

So, I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Here is a link to the page where I found it: http://jontaplin.com/2008/09/25/is-posse-comitatus-no-longer-the-law/

And here is partial text:

Recently, Congress passed a controversial bill which grants the President the right to commandeer Federal or even state National Guard Troops and use them inside the United States. This bill, entitled the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR), contains a provision, (Section 1076) which allows the President to:
“…employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to…
1. restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States…, where the President determines that,…domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order;
2. suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy..