RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 7:57:19 AM)
The morality of the situation depends on what the shooter felt or believed at the time. I am certain that, to take a deliberately extreme example, you wouldn't blame me of shooting someone in order to prevent them killing one of my children, if that were the only way I could stop him? If I felt there was a real and imminent threat to one of my kids, and if shooting the person dead was the only way to make them safe, I would actually feel something of a moral obligation to shoot. Kirata has, as is his annoying habit, already posted some background that helps to highlight the fact that these situations are always a whole lot more complicated than at first appears.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:01:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml ....No, I wouldn't fire blindly, and recklessly, into the garage.. And there's the major difference! And we still have the gundiots on here that still think that not only do they have the legal right to blindly shoot but that they need to shoot first "just in case" he happens to be armed to the teeth like Rambo and get the jump on them. Sheeesh... What a way to live your life - in complete paranoia. So sad. And so unnecessary.

crazyml -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:14:41 AM)
I think the major difference is in the phrase that follows that one... In which I point out that my fear that the intruder might be armed would be very low. I grew up in Lagos. .. In the 70's, in Nigeria, if you heard an intruder rooting around your garage the best advice would have been to shoot first. It depends on the context, surely?

Musicmystery -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Right. So you can't actually point out where I made that suggestion, can you. It seems a little silly to me. Sure, this is a story about an idiot with a gun, I agree with you there. But it is also a story about an idiot who went into someone's garage, in a place where gun ownership is high, and the fear of violence also high. I can tell you that if I knew someone was rooting around my garage at night while my kids slept in the adjoining house, I too would be working on the basis that they had left most of their civil rights at the boundary of my property. No, I wouldn't fire blindly, and recklessly, into the garage.. but then in the UK, my fear that a burglar might have a firearm is pretty low. Even in the UK, where we are all terribly anti gun... If the guy could demonstrate that he believed was in imminent fear of his life, his actions would be justified. He doesn't have to not be a complete idiot. .. He just has to believe his life, or that of his family, was threatened. See, here's the thing for me. I agree with the rights at the border and that the intruder was a moron. But I've read repeatedly by gun apologists that no, gun owners make sure of their targets, that this is gun ownership 101. Except that it's often not true. As in this case.

crazyml -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:38:04 AM)
I can't disagree with you MM.

altoonamaster -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:38:10 AM)
so freedomwarf you suggest a homeowner waits to see if the intruder is armed before shooting him

altoonamaster -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:40:14 AM)
and mm make sure of your target inside the garage before you shoot

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 8:59:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: altoonamaster so freedomwarf you suggest a homeowner waits to see if the intruder is armed before shooting him Abso-fucking-lutely!!!!! Or, if dark (as in this case), use a flashlight or turn the fucking lights on! Jeeeezz. It ain't that fucking hard to work out... or is it?? quote: ORIGINAL: altoonamaster and mm make sure of your target inside the garage before you shoot Yep. Make sure you are shooting: A) at the target, and B) the right target! And just because you have the legal right to shoot to kill, that doesn't (or shouldn't) make that your #1 priority. Why is this fundamental stuff sooo fucking hard for gundiots to understand??? On the one hand they say that gun restrictions only affect law-abiding punks and on the other hand they advocate THIS sort of crazy behaviour?? We see this idiotic shit virtually every day across the US. So clearly, there ain't so many "law abiding" citizens out there. And that's why you need shit-loads stronger gun controls to stop this nonsense. ETA: Yes, I have the right to use deadly force if someone invades my property - the same laws just like you have. The difference being, over here I'd be up in court on murder charges unless I could absolutely prove beyond any shadow of doubt that my life was in danger to claim any sort of mitigating defense. Unlike the US where the shooter/homeowner is usually assumed to be the innocent party; here, it is assumed the shooter/killer is the guilty one unless they can prove extenuating circumstances for shooting in the first place.

joether -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 9:09:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether The whole point of this thread is some idiot with a firearm, shot some kid to death without identify who or what he was up against at night. You're just making shit up. He knew by observation that he was up against someone who had illegally and surreptitiously slipped under his partially open garage door and was heading for the entry into the home's living quarters where his wife and 10-month old child were. And as shameful as it may be in your view, he elected not to risk leaving his wife a widow and his child fatherless by confronting a potentially armed intruder in the dark to inquire if perhaps the fellow only just needed change for a dollar. Really" A motion detector can perform a full biology exam on the orgasm that passes by it? I 'hate' to break this to you, Kirata (and your usually more intelligent than this...), but a motion detector only detects......(drum roll).....MOTION. That's why they call it a 'motion detector'. Yes, it buzzed that something passed by he detector. It could have been anything from a piece of paper to a bear (a small child to an adult would easily fall in that range). So now you have someone scared shitless with a shotgun and no flashlight, in the dead of night, confronting an unknown entity and/or number of enemies. You can understand the depth of foolish tactics on display here, right? The firearm owner did not observe anything of useful detail until it was all over.

joether -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 9:20:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Right. So you can't actually point out where I made that suggestion, can you. It seems a little silly to me. Sure, this is a story about an idiot with a gun, I agree with you there. But it is also a story about an idiot who went into someone's garage, in a place where gun ownership is high, and the fear of violence also high. I can tell you that if I knew someone was rooting around my garage at night while my kids slept in the adjoining house, I too would be working on the basis that they had left most of their civil rights at the boundary of my property. No, I wouldn't fire blindly, and recklessly, into the garage.. but then in the UK, my fear that a burglar might have a firearm is pretty low. Even in the UK, where we are all terribly anti gun... If the guy could demonstrate that he believed was in imminent fear of his life, his actions would be justified. He doesn't have to not be a complete idiot. .. He just has to believe his life, or that of his family, was threatened. See, here's the thing for me. I agree with the rights at the border and that the intruder was a moron. But I've read repeatedly by gun apologists that no, gun owners make sure of their targets, that this is gun ownership 101. Except that it's often not true. As in this case. Usually after these horrible accidents, its the gun owner shaping and molding the facts to show he or she was in the right. Since we don't have a 'speak with dead' ability to find from the dead body the truth of the matter. George Zimmerman for example, had taken legal courses in how to respond to a police officer. So he knew how to mold the information to show he was defending himself from a kid half his body weight and size. In this case, the firearm owner is trying to convince all of us, that he was defending his family, by going on the attack, at night, without a flashlight, to confront an intruder. An intruder whom he had no idea of skill level, ability and gear. Not to mention if there was more than one intruder... When you are advancing to attack an opponent you are NOT in a place of 'self defense'. Attacking from a position of self defense AFTER a breach....THAT...is self defense. Leaving 'holes' in your defenses (i.e. a partially opened door), is not securing your home from invasion of any kind. But rather....inviting it....

Kirata -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 9:54:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Really" A motion detector can perform a full biology exam on the orgasm that passes by it? I 'hate' to break this to you, Kirata (and your usually more intelligent than this...), but a motion detector only detects......(drum roll).....MOTION. That's why they call it a 'motion detector'. Yes, it buzzed that something passed by he detector. It could have been anything from a piece of paper to a bear (a small child to an adult would easily fall in that range). So now you have someone scared shitless with a shotgun and no flashlight, in the dead of night, confronting an unknown entity and/or number of enemies. You can understand the depth of foolish tactics on display here, right? The firearm owner did not observe anything of useful detail until it was all over. You can't read, can you. You're making shit up again.... “they watched in fear and terror” as the intruder entered the garage and headed toward the kitchen door. ~Post #35 They had set up a motion detector and a video camera. K.

Kirata -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 9:56:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I've read repeatedly by gun apologists that no, gun owners make sure of their targets, that this is gun ownership 101. Except that it's often not true. As in this case. The point of the rule is not to risk hitting somebody you don't want to shoot. I don't think Kaarma needed to worry about that in this case. K.

joether -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:14:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether Really" A motion detector can perform a full biology exam on the orgasm that passes by it? I 'hate' to break this to you, Kirata (and your usually more intelligent than this...), but a motion detector only detects......(drum roll).....MOTION. That's why they call it a 'motion detector'. Yes, it buzzed that something passed by he detector. It could have been anything from a piece of paper to a bear (a small child to an adult would easily fall in that range). So now you have someone scared shitless with a shotgun and no flashlight, in the dead of night, confronting an unknown entity and/or number of enemies. You can understand the depth of foolish tactics on display here, right? The firearm owner did not observe anything of useful detail until it was all over. You can't read, can you. You're making shit up again.... “they watched in fear and terror” as the intruder entered the garage and headed toward the kitchen door. ~Post #35 They had set up a motion detector and a video camera. "...Prosecutors are making shit up wholesale." I read your post #35. No mention of either a 'motion detector' or 'camera'. In fact, I scanned many posts for a camera, without a successful result. Sounds like the prosecutors are not the only ones making shit up! So how could they watch in fear and terror without a camera? And if they did.....WHY.....go out in the open to confront an unknown intruder? Please, explain to me the tactical advantage of being: A ) Out in the Open, B ) No clear line of retreat, C ) No idea of enemy strength, numbers, and gear, D ) without a flashlight, E) At night? Only an idiot with a firearm makes those sort of bad tactical decisions. And idiots should NOT have firearms for obvious reasons! Hell....this guy and the people within don't know how to turn on outside lights? Or inside? Those things do alert an intruder that the occupants of the house are aware of something lurking nearby.

joether -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:16:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I've read repeatedly by gun apologists that no, gun owners make sure of their targets, that this is gun ownership 101. Except that it's often not true. As in this case. The point of the rule is not to risk hitting somebody you don't want to shoot. I don't think Kaarma needed to worry about that in this case. I guess its 'ok' in your book to shoot unarmed foreign exchange students. Got it....

Kirata -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:18:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether I guess its 'ok' in your book to shoot unarmed foreign exchange students. Got it.... There is no advantage to making yourself look more of a fool than you already do. K.

Musicmystery -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:32:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I've read repeatedly by gun apologists that no, gun owners make sure of their targets, that this is gun ownership 101. Except that it's often not true. As in this case. The point of the rule is not to risk hitting somebody you don't want to shoot. I don't think Kaarma needed to worry about that in this case. K. Saw your point to joether. Noted.

joether -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:34:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether I guess its 'ok' in your book to shoot unarmed foreign exchange students. Got it.... There is no advantage to making yourself look more of a fool than you already do. Your the one that made the stupid and foolish comment. I'm just pointing the facts out here. Your the one defending an idiot with a firearm. Notice how all the other usual firearm owners are not stepping into to defend this guy? He made a list of bad decisions that resulted in a teenager being killed.

Kirata -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 10:38:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether I read your post #35. No mention of either a 'motion detector' or 'camera'... So how could they watch in fear and terror without a camera? Exactly. Think about it. Take your time, I know that's a tough one. (Or you could just have read the linked source) K.

tj444 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 2:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It's a different world, Igor. It really is. People over here in Europe do silly things occasionally, like they probably do everywhere. But we older adults don't feel the need to inspire terror in them for being berks that they are because berks here so rarely get killed for being berks. That's your world, Igor. I can't be bothered to get into an argument about whether or not it's somehow better in the USA because everyone has this freedom to kill and I sure as hell have no interest in entertaining the bleating and whining from certain Americans here about how we Europeans look down on them. All I can say is that I want no part of that sort of world, ever, because I find it disgusting. Peon.. here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.. They take their law & order very seriously here.. I find that a startling stat, since once young people have that criminal record due to being a dumb kid or doing drugs, it means they are shut out in many respects of society and most likely will be doomed to low income jobs the rest of their lives.. What exactly does that mean for this country's economic health in the decades ahead? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt Blacks - that comprise 11% of the population commit 46% of the murders, 35% of rapists. 40$ of felony assaults. Overall blacks comprised 55% of violent felons. what exactly is your point? what difference do these stats of yours on black people make in relation to this particular killing?

SadistDave -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/9/2014 2:49:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It's a different world, Igor. It really is. People over here in Europe do silly things occasionally, like they probably do everywhere. But we older adults don't feel the need to inspire terror in them for being berks that they are because berks here so rarely get killed for being berks. That's your world, Igor. I can't be bothered to get into an argument about whether or not it's somehow better in the USA because everyone has this freedom to kill and I sure as hell have no interest in entertaining the bleating and whining from certain Americans here about how we Europeans look down on them. All I can say is that I want no part of that sort of world, ever, because I find it disgusting. Peon.. here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.. They take their law & order very seriously here.. I find that a startling stat, since once young people have that criminal record due to being a dumb kid or doing drugs, it means they are shut out in many respects of society and most likely will be doomed to low income jobs the rest of their lives.. What exactly does that mean for this country's economic health in the decades ahead? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt Blacks - that comprise 11% of the population commit 46% of the murders, 35% of rapists. 40$ of felony assaults. Overall blacks comprised 55% of violent felons. what exactly is your point? what difference do these stats of yours on black people make in relation to this particular killing? You might want to look back a few pages for the answer to that question. Tweak got her knickers in a twist and pulled the race card on page 3 ... -SD-

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