RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (Full Version)

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thursdays -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 1:40:47 AM)

There I do. Being a dolt again.

See Crazyml's reply below...



crazyml -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 1:42:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

So what do you think? Is 'obedience' part of the definition of 'submissive'?


I think it's part of the definition of "submission". A submissive person need only be obedient to the person they submit to. This is probably angels on pinheads, but I know lots of submissives that have no need at all to be obedient to me!

quote:


Or is a person who enjoys being controlled, whether or not that involves obedience, still a submissive?


I have a sense that "breing controlled" implies obedience, so this seems moot to me.



FieryOpal -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 7:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Or is a person who enjoys being controlled, whether or not that involves obedience, still a submissive?

I have a sense that "breing controlled" implies obedience, so this seems moot to me.

I would think that if somebody enjoys being controlled, it would be indicative of a submissive-type personality trait or disposition.
In my limited experience, submissive personalities tend to be obedient and to want to be controlled to one extent or another.
Could a submissive enjoy being controlled but not be obedient? It's possible, but who would want a disobedient submissive?

I'm trying to look at this from as many angles as I can, and I keep coming back to the concept of "free will" and of exercising said free will.
If it is your (plural) free will to allow somebody else to take control of you in whatever capacity, you could be obedient to that person and not be a submissive.
Nevertheless, if you are a submissive, being controlled and being obedient of your own free will would be positive signs or indicators of your submission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lohea

Submission is situational. The definition changes depending on the person. There's a word that's coming to mind... that's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it at the moment.
<snip>
On the discussion you've started, submission is a state of mind.... You're accepting of your fate, whether or not you choose to put up a struggle is just personal taste.

Welcome to the forum side, Lohea. [sm=welcome.gif]
Would the word be conditional? As in conditional to whom a submissive chooses to submit?
Even then, I don't believe OP had blind submission, much less blind obedience in mind. [:)]



Greta75 -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 7:13:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
I would think that if somebody enjoys being controlled, it would be indicative of a submissive-type personality trait or disposition.

I am in the category of loving to be controlled, but I can't be controlled by most people, so the one who can control me will definitely be special to me.

quote:

Could a submissive enjoy being controlled but not be obedient? It's possible, but who would want a disobedient submissive?

It's about inspiring obedience again, how the dom exercises the control. If the dom can control his sub, his goal would be to gain the sub's obedience.

What I notice is, female subs are generally more headstrong than male subs. I don't know why. Male subs are most likely to already start addressing you as Mistress and all the protocol and okay with being called degrading names at first chat. Although I have never domme, but my x-dom gets the kick out of non-sexual dominance of male subs too, and I have watched them in action how they defer to my x-dom. You know when my x-dom first met me, he was so respectful, and a harmless sweet vanilla man, but when he first approach a male sub, his completely derogatory, and it always amazes me how that turn the male sub on and want to please my x-dom. I guess his really instinctive towards different people and knows the right buttons to motivate them to want to obey him.




sandyTheSub -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 10:03:26 AM)

How can one be controlled but not obey? What kind of control is that?



Greta75 -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 10:04:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandyTheSub
How can one be controlled but not obey? What kind of control is that?

It's the process of implementing control.



orgasmdenial12 -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 1:26:45 PM)

Yes some submissives like to have their submission 'forced' like a kind of battle of wills, and not giving it to anyone who doesn't have the ability to do that. It's more common than you might think, keep researching it and I'm sure you'll get more answers. There's even a book about it but I can't remember the name.



DesFIP -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 6:36:25 PM)

What you call 'force' someone else might interpret as having to be earned. I felt submissive towards him before he had earned my obedience. He'll tell you himself that I probably questioned him constantly for two years straight before I felt safe just obeying him. He needed to prove to me that his decision making was of sufficiently high caliber that I knew he would almost always make the smartest choice.

It doesn't mean I wasn't submissive towards him before that. It wasn't one day off and the next on. It was little by little.




BecomingV -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/12/2014 7:29:02 PM)

There are romantic notions about losing control, losing ourselves in love and here, subspace/Domspace. They are fun fantasies. That's all about chemistry. It can last a very long time if the chemistry is strong - so strong, that many lie to themselves about how good it all is, until it ends and they can see they have become "less" because of the relationship.

The thing is, if you check science, nature and even religion, it's known that humans control themselves. To gain control over others, requires tools - weapons, power in information and SHEER WILL to gain control. BDSM uses these tools but the foundation is CONSENT.

So, you see, submission is about giving consent to another to communicate their will, to instruct on which actions support that will and to expect that will to be followed. So, the Dom/me says, "I want this. You will do these things as your part of manifesting my will. Thank you."

The Dominant is also giving consent. They take responsibility for maintaining their own good character and they accept that how well they do that, directly affects the well-being of another. They agree to know the wants and needs of their submissive especially as they grow and change. They agree to express dominance within the boundaries set by the submissive.

On both sides of the kneel, consent must be present. Even consensual non-consent involves consent (and one would suggest - an inordinate amount of communication and trust-building).

Obedience is one expression of submission, but submission is never an expression of obedience.



Lohea -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/13/2014 2:05:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Or is a person who enjoys being controlled, whether or not that involves obedience, still a submissive?

I have a sense that "breing controlled" implies obedience, so this seems moot to me.

I would think that if somebody enjoys being controlled, it would be indicative of a submissive-type personality trait or disposition.
In my limited experience, submissive personalities tend to be obedient and to want to be controlled to one extent or another.
Could a submissive enjoy being controlled but not be obedient? It's possible, but who would want a disobedient submissive?

I'm trying to look at this from as many angles as I can, and I keep coming back to the concept of "free will" and of exercising said free will.
If it is your (plural) free will to allow somebody else to take control of you in whatever capacity, you could be obedient to that person and not be a submissive.
Nevertheless, if you are a submissive, being controlled and being obedient of your own free will would be positive signs or indicators of your submission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lohea

Submission is situational. The definition changes depending on the person. There's a word that's coming to mind... that's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it at the moment.
<snip>
On the discussion you've started, submission is a state of mind.... You're accepting of your fate, whether or not you choose to put up a struggle is just personal taste.

Welcome to the forum side, Lohea. [sm=welcome.gif]
Would the word be conditional? As in conditional to whom a submissive chooses to submit?
Even then, I don't believe OP had blind submission, much less blind obedience in mind. [:)]


Thank you for the welcome.

I think conditional is the word that was on the tip of my tongue, so again, thank you.

I'm not trying to imply that OP was doing anything, it's just my two cents on what being a submissive can mean to each person. Or even, just my two cents on what submission means to me.



HeldandHappy -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/14/2014 4:16:49 PM)

By being obedient, I am do what he asks, which makes him happy . . . so, yes! For me obedience is a big part of submission.



ite939435116 -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (5/16/2014 5:03:04 PM)

I am a slave - not a submissive. I am strong-willed and spirited. I do not trust easily. I am a problem child all the way around. I will freely admit this. A great deal of my issues come from being an abuse survivor and then having a well-intentioned Household abuse power. I don't blindly follow orders, I will not abandon my Ethos (demand that I make your anorexic girlfriend a lifting routine without handing me control of her diet and see just how fast I tell you to bugger off, for example. Try putting a chain-mate with three co-morbid wasting diseases on a diet when her body weight is within normal range, for example. You will see just how "obedient" I am - which I am NOT AT ALL under those conditions). I exercise intelligent disobedience - but I am not willfully disobedient. If an Owner is having no luck getting me to obey a command, s/he better think LONG and HARD about WHY that command is not being obeyed - because I don't disobey without being firmly convinced that someone is going to end up in the hospital or in jail if the command is executed. My first order of business is to protect myself and my family from harm. I have ZERO problem disobeying if obedience would bring someone I care deeply for into harm's way.



slaveoubliette -> RE: Is submissive "obedient"? (6/7/2014 5:11:52 PM)

obedience equals re-liability, if I were unreliable what Mistress or Master would want to bother with me



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