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Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 6:11:24 AM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		A lot of what I read around is centred on dominant control and submissive obedience.

So are all submissives obedient? Is that part of the definition? Or can some people just like the other taking control, forcing their hand, controlling them, despite not actively obeying and "giving over" their obedience?

There are brat's, who play up, but they are still obedient afterwards, and are just "mucking around" and "being mischievous". The general assumption is they agreed to be obedient, but are just being disobedient to get attention or to play games.

So what do you think? Is 'obedience' part of the definition of 'submissive'?
Or is a person who enjoys being controlled, whether or not that involves obedience, still a submissive?

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 6:37:24 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		It is for me. To submit is to yield to the will or authority of another. If you're actively fighting that will to the point that they get their own way only by giving you no other choice, you're not really yielding. I'm not saying that a submissive must always be obedient to qualify for the label, but certainly the desire must be there to an extent.

I suppose if we're talking about bedroom submission, I might still use the word 'submissive' with some qualifiers because I don't know of another word that would be so widely understood. But if we're talking in a D/s relationship, then no. There is no ongoing dynamic of power exchange if it has to be bullied out of the person every time - even consensually that sounds pretty dysfunctional and unhealthy to me. The dominant is constantly forced to resort to drastic tactics to prove his or her status, the submissive is actively working against their partner. Sounds exhausting and leaves a lot of room for miscommunication and resentment in the long run.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 6:57:39 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I am a problematic submissive, I will self-admit, because my main kink consensual non-consensual.
Which means, I do not like the scenerio of willing slave by my own free will. I have to be forced, blackmailed, threatened into it or beaten into it.

So naturally I will always be defiant and not obedient and love to challenge the dominant and it excites me to see what he will do to force my co-operation. Whether through mental manipulation or whatever.

And sometimes I know I am clearly being maneuvered and manipulated to follow what he wants, and I am fully aware it is happening and what he is trying to do, and I am secretly going along with it and feeling super thrilled by it.

Nothing sexually turns me on more than being PWNed and outsmarted by a sneaky dom. When it happens, inside I am laughing and feeling thrilled, while on the outside, pretending to be truly subdued and humbled.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/11/2014 7:05:29 AM >

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 7:54:15 AM   
InHisHeart


Posts: 630
Joined: 3/22/2014
Status: offline 		Obedience is all a part of me being a submissive. Being in a constant battle of wills wouldn't be an enjoyable relationship for either of us, we would both find it very frustrating, emotionally exhausting and way too much drama.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 9:08:18 AM   
candisa


Posts: 127
Joined: 1/7/2008
Status: offline 		In order for me to be obedient, I must be able to trust in the man himself. Meaning the integrity and ethics in which he possess, it all come down to the ability to submit to the decisions that he places on the relationship and myself. Being obedient for me is not just a follow me blindly because I am your dominant, rather I am the man you can lean on, and with a confidence that he is not being domineering, but rather he has proven he is a dominant man, and has earned my total trust.

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candisa

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 9:10:39 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I guess submission and obedience is the same thing. If you submitted to his will, you will naturally be obedient, so we are again back to, maybe this question should be phrased as, do you need your dom to inspire your submission, or are you just submissive because you are just submissive.
Today some silly juvenile dom PMed me, "Greta, give me your yahoo ID.", and I wonder if his doing number games to say this same line to every submissive online, to see, who is submissive enough to just obey.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/11/2014 9:12:03 AM >

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 9:48:44 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Ahhhhhhh! The Op mentioned my favorite word!

Let's look at the definition, shall we?

The first definition of the verb (transitive) is: "To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another."

The first definition in the intransitive is: "To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield."

While the word "obey" isn't in either definition, I think it's fair to say that these definitions could be used to ill-define: disobedience.

Since that's true, I think it's fair to say that obedience is implied by the very definition of submission.







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< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/11/2014 9:50:08 AM >

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 10:23:52 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains
...
So are all submissives obedient?
....
So what do you think? Is 'obedience' part of the definition of 'submissive'?
Or is a person who enjoys being controlled, whether or not that involves obedience, still a submissive?

Are all submissives obedient? No. Should they be? Absolutely.
Barring standing one's ground out of principle, an issue of non-consent or withdrawal of consent, a violation of specified Limits, or if the submissive chooses to end to the D/s relationship dynamic, etc., a sub wouldn't actually be submissive if s/he weren't obedient to the Dominant partner.

What Greta described is somewhat different, would need to be negotiated in advance as an integral part of her D/s dynamic, and she would otherwise be obedient or else what would be the point?
I'm assuming that her form of submission is a component of keeping her sexual excitement levels up, this constant pseudo-challenging of her Dom. Enjoying being controlled is very much at the core of submission.

As a Domme, however, I would never put up with this from my sub. Whether he is 100% obedient (and better have a damn good reason why not), he must exhibit an ongoing spirit of compliance and his WILLINGNESS to submit.
Given that we would maintain open lines of communication at all times, there is no reason for my sub to have to resort to passive-aggressive behavior. Even if he has a character deficit in not being able to follow instructions, I wouldn't want such a sub in the first place.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 11:24:09 AM   
InHisHeart


Posts: 630
Joined: 3/22/2014
Status: offline
quote:

maybe this question should be phrased as, do you need your dom to inspire your submission, or are you just submissive because you are just submissive.


Even though I am submissive, I don't submit to just anyone. The inspiration and desire I get from my dom to submit comes from being with a dom that I have complete trust in, who I love, who trusts me, loves me and being compatible with each other.

_____________________________

I don't have a bucket list but my fucket list is a mile long.

I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.


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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 3:12:08 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline 		FR

If you're not (ultimately) obedient, then you're not submissive. To submit is to yield, even if you take the scenic route in getting there.

If you don't obey, you're not submitting.

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What you permit, you promote.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 4:01:10 PM   
fluffyprincess


Posts: 64
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: InHisHeart

quote:

maybe this question should be phrased as, do you need your dom to inspire your submission, or are you just submissive because you are just submissive.


Even though I am submissive, I don't submit to just anyone. The inspiration and desire I get from my dom to submit comes from being with a dom that I have complete trust in, who I love, who trusts me, loves me and being compatible with each other.


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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 4:01:51 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Part of the problem is that quite a few masochists think they must be submissive. Not true. There are masochists that are not submissive or dominant, and there are even dominant masochists out there.

If your main focus is pain, you are a masochist. If you don't like experiencing pain, you are not a masochist. If you like to obey, then you are submissive. IF you don't like obeying orders, you are not a submissive

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 4:34:11 PM   
Bucephalus


Posts: 93
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

and there are even dominant masochists out there.




I can agree with that from experience. Though I do enjoy inflicting pain as much as I enjoy receiving it. I suppose I am on both sides of the masochistic and sadistic coin.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 5:51:53 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		It's sort of a negotiated obedience . . . conditional obedience.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 7:43:45 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		From what I can tell there are three main drives to submission. Obedience, service, or transparency.

Someone who is service oriented may enjoy having everything set up so the dominant never needs to issue an order. Someone who is wired for emotional transparency may need to explain their feelings and inquire about the dominant's before they can obey.

And of course, it's not at all uncommon to have a mixture. I'm primarily driven by emotional transparency with a minor in obedience. I'm not service oriented and I much prefer him to give me an order than for me to do anticipatory service. What's important here is that he's the same.

He wants that I have the feelings he wants me to have more than for me to jump when he says to.

With that said, if he asks for me to get him a glass of water, he just wants that. He doesn't want a discussion about why, nor does he want to have to force me.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 8:51:01 PM   
anniezz338


Posts: 1183
Joined: 8/17/2010
Status: offline 		When I ask a dom what he is looking for and the first thing he says is obedience, I feel like he gets it. I believe obedience is the core of submission.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 9:15:55 PM   
MasterHypnoMind


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/19/2013
Status: offline 		I think they are similar but not quite the same. A submissive does obey but not all that obey are submissive. I think submission has to do more with a WILLINGNESS to obey. For example someone could put a gun to your head and say "do this or else" and you might obey but have no desire you just don't want him to use the gun. You are defiant but still obey. A sub relinquishes control (in the end) willingly.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/11/2014 11:07:07 PM   
sandyTheSub


Posts: 24
Joined: 4/13/2014
Status: offline 		A sub needs to obey, that is all the fun there is. It is about the power exchange between Dom and sub. Sub may be forced to obey by various means, but in the end it is about Dom giving orders and sub obeying.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/12/2014 12:58:23 AM   
vixenmoon


Posts: 35
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		One way in which I express my submission to an individual is to be obedient.

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RE: Is submissive "obedient"? - 5/12/2014 1:35:36 AM   
Lohea


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/5/2014
Status: offline
Submission is situational. The definition changes depending on the person. There's a word that's coming to mind... that's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it at the moment.

Regardless, what I'm getting at is that the terms of submission bends to the will of the relationship. What it means to me may not be what it means to you.

Some will insist that submissives and slaves need to be obedient and subserviant to all Dominants they come across. That mentality is rash across Collarme in particular. It's a bit pathetic for a Dom to expect you to listen to him within the first few messages, let alone the first few meets. If he or she is worthy of taking control of the submissive, then submission may be granted.

I understand that isn't what you're talking about, it's a separate point that needs to be made.

On the discussion you've started, submission is a state of mind. If you are accepting of the other person putting you through your paces, humiliating you, pushing you around and you choose not to leave or worse, call the police, then that is submission in the simplest of terms. You're accepting of your fate, whether or not you choose to put up a struggle is just personal taste.

(in reply to vixenmoon)
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