RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/13/2006 4:38:30 PM)

Put that way, it seems you are right Mistress. While always very motivated to get top grades, I'm guilty of just about everything else on your list.
 
I suppose I should take tolerance pills on this issue, and thank you for the enlightened discussion. [:D]



MistressLorelei -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/13/2006 8:26:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Put that way, it seems you are right Mistress. While always very motivated to get top grades, I'm guilty of just about everything else on your list.
 
I suppose I should take tolerance pills on this issue, and thank you for the enlightened discussion. [:D]


Caitlyn, 

It was my pleasure, and I enjoyed the discussion as well.  No worries, we all need a tolerance pill every now and then.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/13/2006 11:34:25 PM)

I've received this in my email spam filter several times. It always pisses me off.

I know it's aimed at American Education (the Spanish gives it away), but, as an educator, I think the simplistic idea that education has been dumbed down is perpetuated by people who don't understand what challenges schools, and teachers, face.

Blame the Teachers, Blame the Schools...all very easy to point a finger, but let's look realistically at how society has abdicated any responsibility for parenting, letting TV and McDonalds raise their children.

In 30 years of experience in Education I have seen people's attitude toward parenting change so much. Nowadays most parents are too busy trying to make ends meet to actually know what's going on with their child. That's not always their fault, but it doean't make it easier for schools to teach their children.

So go ahead, and blame it all on the ESL students, or the dumbing down of education, but remember, life is rarely that black or white.



MasterJax -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/13/2006 11:50:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

BASIC MATH:

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter
girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents
from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel
and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her
discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she
hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction
to her, she stood there and cried.

Why do I tell you this?

Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
4/5 of the price. What is his profit?


2. Teaching Math In 1960

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?


3. Teaching Math In 1970

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
$80. Did he make a profit?


4. Teaching Math In 1980

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
$80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.


5. Teaching Math In 1990

A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and
inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the
preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of
$20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class
participation after answering the question: How did the birds and
squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? ( There are no wrong
answers.)


6. Teaching Math In 2005

Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la
producciones es $80.



Thats not math, where are the integrals, variables, logarithims? I can't just read that and cipher.. psssh. I need a diagram and Free body diagram for anything anymore.. Engineering has ruined math for me.



Sasy -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/13/2006 11:52:06 PM)

One thing I want to clarify .. .I  worked in education when I did work and I  DONT  blame the teachers  I  blame the idiots that  put in the standerized testing. Teachers should be allowed to  teach not train kids to  take all thses tests ... it just isnt teaching. And yes I have done something  one  I stay  on top of things at the school and use their rule books to  fight through  the bullshit ... and got an advocate for my  daughter ... Because when our special ed child comes home everyday just after the state pay time you  know ... It is just for thier convience... she doesnt fit the mold ... but they  cant teach the ... TEST and teach her .. hell no special ed kids here take most of the tests  so what  is the ppoint of spending all day  teaching them how to  take it



doll -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/14/2006 9:07:25 AM)

I agree with you on that...I don't understand why they make spec. ed students take the tests, I worked with special needs children, some mentally and physically handicapped and they would have us do portfolios on them to show their "educational level".  Most of our kids were ages 12-16 and were on a 1-2 grade learning level, so I for the life of me have no idea why they are used for standardized testing.
 
You know these teachers go to college to get a degree to teach these children and then you have these smart mouthed no-it-all kids who come to class and don't do their work, don't do homework and don't pay attention to the teacher; and let's not forget the kids who yell and cuss at the teachers and threaten them.  I am not saying the education system is perfect, but IMO it all stems from the home...get involved with the kids and be parents. 



doll -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/14/2006 9:10:09 AM)

Pardon my idiocy lol....editing above post from no-it-all to KNOW-it-all....damn typist needs to be fired.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/14/2006 9:39:07 AM)

quote:

life is rarely that black or white.


Cin,
It's this very sentence that should be the banner for what is wrong with the educational system. There is black and white in the real world. There is a right answer to the question 2+2. If someone answers 3 they shouldn't be praised for getting it almost right, they should be told it is wrong and fail. The rest of the class who answered 4 shouldn't be held back or have to cover the same concept until the child answering 3 catches up.

Nowhere in the world, outside education, is getting it almost right acceptable. Businesses fail because they almost chose the right color for their spring line of clothes, because they almost chose the right location, because they almost predicted the correct economic trends. Yet having sat through countless school "awards" programs during my "replicant's" education where 100% of the students were recognized for their "achievements" it's no wonder they can't make change. After all, in their formative years they were trained that being almost correct is acceptable.

There is only one difference between a pubic education and a private education. In a private or parochial school failure is an option. It's a key difference. It develops accountability and responsibility at both the child and the parent levels.

Personal accountability and personal responsibility is an acquired skill. It's not longer learned in public schools. Consequences for decisions, whether it's the decision not to study, or the decision to speak a language other than English in the home have piratical consequences in life. They don't have any consequence in the school system. Failure is reality in life, but is not an option in school. "No child left behind" must fail eventually because adults get "left behind" all the time.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/14/2006 4:23:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

life is rarely that black or white.


Cin,
It's this very sentence that should be the banner for what is wrong with the educational system. There is black and white in the real world. There is a right answer to the question 2+2. If someone answers 3 they shouldn't be praised for getting it almost right, they should be told it is wrong and fail. The rest of the class who answered 4 shouldn't be held back or have to cover the same concept until the child answering 3 catches up.


I certianly have no argument with what you are saying. But when I said life is rarely black and white, I was refering to people's need to pin a simple answer on a complicated issue such as the Education System.

When children fail at school it's rarely possible to point to one issue and say "That's why Johnny can't read."

The factors involved are usually multiple, and intertwined. Untangling them is like trying to untangle a marionette that has rattled around an old toy trunk for years.

Children fail because of lack of parental involvement, teachers with no support and large class sizes, goverment intervention (standardized testing, etc), undiagnosed learning disabilities, and lack of funds to deal with all the challenges these things cause.




JerryInTampa -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/15/2006 9:37:16 AM)

quote:

The stress of these tests is having teachers and administrators fired every year for cheating ..... And yet a child exits high school unable to  count out change for  a dollar. 
I posted up the F-CAT link. Do me a favor and try to pass the three F-CAT math portions without being able to count.

You've made an assertion here with no emperical support.

quote:

In my  childs case she is considered special ed ... (tho has an IQ of 118 ) who  has figured out if she doesnt want to  go  to school that  day all she has to  do is cuss and home she goes
Sounds like a parenting failure... though it certainly could be an emotional issue.

quote:

Who is to  blame children cant count ... the child or the administration
That depends on whether it's an anomoly or a statistic, but there's definately a parental failure in that instance.



JerryInTampa -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/15/2006 9:41:32 AM)

quote:

well again, perhaps fasttracks for those who arent going to become geometers or whatever.

But you should know the 11 rules of algebra before you can go past gradeschool.

You should know how to count change and do concrete mathematics before you leave highschool.
Your use of the fictitious word "geometers" likely says enough to make any response redundant. But let's point out the most basic problem... one needs to be able to perform arithmatic in order to perform algebra, and one needs to be able to perform algebra in order to perform geometry. Each builds on its predecessor in succession.

quote:

(Oh, yeah...and fuck columbus (1492....isabella, the entire fuckoree) and the mangna carta (1066....William the Conquerer nee Bastard) unless you are going into college level history, we can't even remember that we shouldn't interfere in other countries internal affairs for more than 4 years.)  Let's not go back beyond our ken.
Because scholars and scholarly societies are never as successful nor remembered as those with no sense of history or place?

Those who fail to understand history and all that...



JerryInTampa -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/15/2006 9:47:35 AM)

quote:

It's this very sentence that should be the banner for what is wrong with the educational system. There is black and white in the real world. There is a right answer to the question 2+2. If someone answers 3 they shouldn't be praised for getting it almost right, they should be told it is wrong and fail.
Some quotes by a man of some merit (Albert Einstein)

I don't believe in mathematics.
Quoted in Carl Seelig. Albert Einstein
 
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Quoted in J R Newman, The World of Mathematics (New York 1956).

Of course, it's a tremendous trap to take the existance of simpe mathmatical relationships in one place to conclude that there must always be simple mathmatical relationships. You seem to be less addressing the point raised (that the issue at hand is not black and white) than going on a tangent about schools accepting "almost right" answers.

Can you show me where a school has given credit for a "1+1=3" response? I doubt your assertion that it has.



caitlyn -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/15/2006 11:23:36 AM)

It is not my intent to question anyone else's life experience.
 
In the public High School I attended, people failed all the time. I know people that had to repeat a grade. A few of the kids in my graduating class, didn't graduate on time.



BoleroMaster -> RE: Basic Math = A Sad Comentary (7/15/2006 1:16:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JerryInTampa

Can you show me where a school has given credit for a "1+1=3" response? I doubt your assertion that it has.


I doubt that such a literal view was the point of that argument, but if you cannot see beyond the words, to the meaning of the example, allow me to elaborate.

In the "No Child Left Behind" system, when a few students of a larger class cannot understand a concept, idea, or fact (such as 2+2=4 . . . which btw was the actual example used by Mercnbeth) the teacher is told to spend more time re-covering the topic as many times as is needed to get the slower students to understand . . . all to the detriment of the students who had grasped the topic the first time around. Thus, the children who answer "4" are punished, while simultaneously, the children answering "3" are rewarded with more attention, and more time spent on their education.

This system is terrible, all classes and grades need to be merit-based . . . after perhaps 2nd or 3rd grade, tests should be given to students, as well as teacher input to get to more teacher-controlled advancement. Also, students would be separated into leveled classes at the same time. The students who need more time and re-covering of topics, would all be together, so the teacher could get in-depth time spent focused on simpler concepts. At the same time, the advanced students would be in their own class, able to work and discuss concepts at a pace more suited to their learning style.

"No Child Left Behind" does not make the slower kids learn faster, it just holds the faster students back. And please do not bother to point out that this view is not very politically correct, I know, I've had it since I was in middle school. If the point of our education system is to continue to push later generations to be active and more learned members of society, then how can this be bad. And being "PC" should never be more important than doing what is right for the future of society . . .

-- S



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