Submissive AND slave (Full Version)

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Vgsjohn -> Submissive AND slave (5/20/2014 1:44:09 PM)

yes it is easier to group the two. yes, i do not have a problem with anyone saying they are either or both.

What are Y/your differences? Do Y/you define the two differently? How so?




InHisHeart -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/20/2014 4:27:17 PM)

I'm a submissive. I don't consider myself a slave because in my mind, being a slave to me would mean Master controls every aspect of my life and having to ask permission from the simple everyday things (when and what I can eat, when I can shower, etc.) to all major decisions. I know this is not how life is for all slaves, it's just what slave would mean to me.

IHH



stef -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/20/2014 7:35:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vgsjohn

What are Y/your differences? Do Y/you define the two differently? How so?

If you can leave, you're not a slave.



FightingChains -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/20/2014 11:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vgsjohn

What are Y/your differences? Do Y/you define the two differently? How so?

If you can leave, you're not a slave.


Any human being can leave, or it's false imprisonment.



bearcatw125 -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 8:05:21 AM)

I'm going to second @InHisHeart. To me the difference lies in the level of control the dominant has over the submissive's behavior. I identify as a submissive because I only want to give up some control of what goes on in my life. For instance, I want to have the freedom to choose whether or not I pursue my chosen career. I do not want to give that responsibility to my dominant. If I did have over that part of my life, it would be one step closer to 'slavehood'.

I want to stress that I don't think either label is more correct, just that my form of submission doesn't fall into my definition of 'slave', so it wouldn't be an accurate descriptor for myself or my desired relationship style.



BecomingV -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 8:32:40 AM)

FR - Slave and submissive are yet again, BDSM labels which require elaboration to reach clarity of meaning. This thread may result in postings that show most posters on this thread think "this" or "that," and if taken as such, may provide a helpful foundation for an individual conversation.

IMO, both slave and submissive share these:

~the person knows themselves
~the person chooses a life in which power is consciously delegated to another
~the person communicates their individual vision for what that life looks like
~the person chooses the exact parameters within which they allow the Dominant/Master to exercise that power
~the person enters an agreement based on a compatibility with their desires

Beyond that, it's all up for grabs.



Vgsjohn -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 9:04:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
may provide a helpful foundation for an individual conversation.


This is exactly what i am after. Using words "Y/your differences" and "Do Y/you" i love to hear other P/peoples opinions.


my main difference between the two is free will. A slave gives up free will to his/her Master.



sandyTheSub -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 10:50:34 AM)

I have read about 20 or so definition of submissive and slave. And none really stood out as the right one, they often overlap and never really agree on anything :p

Some people like to think of a slave as it was 100 years ago, total property. But this does not happen in BDSM. It is always with consent.



FriendlyMuppet -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 11:14:29 AM)

Quite often these discussions border on dealing with semantics. One person may consider himself/herself a submissive or a slave or both. The next person who comes along tends to force that person into his or her own guidelines that fit specific definitions.

Over the years, I've stopped caring one way or the other. I consider myself a submissive at all times, as I'm always submissive in relationships to women. But I may not be submissive specifically to one woman or another. Because I'm submissive to women, most women get immediate respect from me and when possible I'll go out of my way to assist them. But when it comes to slavery, I pledge myself to one person who comes along and decides to make me her slave. Slavery, to me, means being owned by someone else. The semantics of all other things are just semantics to me.



eliseobeys -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 2:44:24 PM)

lol Yes My Owner likes to say, Dominate, submit or get the F out of the way but for him titular distinctions mean very little.

Ive never lost free will at any time though during my time as a submissive or later as a slave outside of those moments where you will say or do anything because your so deep in that special place or youv'e been pushed there and sorta programmed.

I make choices each and every time to do or not do etc. Slaves do that, historically sometimes we misbehave to great effect.

Being a slave doesn't mean you loose all ability to think for yourself or some how magically loose free will or for that matter the protection of the laws in most countries.

In some circles a submissive may wear a collar, but only the slave "is" collared.

The way I was taught about this distinction is it has several levels of meaning. One could say your a slave in your heart when as a submissive you either realizes you have always really been a slave (even when you have no Master) or that you have become one while submitting to another. That moment when you know, no matter what, your going to find your way into the collar and that you will seek it out when its not there. When you have surrendered to your submission for good or ill. Your all in.

Yet, until one has climbed the mountain, one cannot with veracity call one's self a mountain climber...so in essence to be a slave in that sense you must have either voluntarily submitted to becoming a slave or been forced into the condition. (the later being illegal in most places)

I think its funny how the internet and porn industry seem to have proliferated some weird idea that slaves are all by default doormats.











FYI: push your slave too far and you may find your slave doesnt like being your slave anymore and she will run away and find a better master or stop doing bdsm altogether.






BecomingV -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 3:27:47 PM)

I anticipated the free will issue in my response, bringing a bit of reality to the fantasy.

Giving up free will is a fantasy which is not possible in real life. Really, I believe this fact is why the language holds such importance, to support the illusions. And, within a relationship, hey, whatever floats boats... but for the purposes of discussion, it's good to keep an eye on reality.

When a person is not given the choice to act on their own behalf, that person has given society a valid reason to step in. Think, criminals or the incompetent or the insane. These people are not relationship material and lack the ability to give consent.

I listen carefully when people talk about abdicating personal responsibility. Another fantasy. (Irresponsible people tend to blame others, so as a Domme, I don't find this to be an attractive quality, nor one that supports trust-building.)

You ask about words and meanings, and my best answer is to understand that the individual conversation is the only one that really matters.

The definition of slave as a person who can never leave is incorrect. Both slaves and submissives can leave at any point and they usually do.

There is some debate in the lifestyle, about providing financial means of leaving the relationship, keeping up savings and maintaining health insurance, for slaves or submissives. This usually comes up when the Dominant wishes to live in such a way that interferes with natural career paths and wealth creation. But, as far as I've seen in our local community, the D/s stuff is more often a less committed situation with less foresight and less responsibility. It's good to know which set of expectations you are dealing with.

Enjoy!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vgsjohn


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
may provide a helpful foundation for an individual conversation.


This is exactly what i am after. Using words "Y/your differences" and "Do Y/you" i love to hear other P/peoples opinions.


my main difference between the two is free will. A slave gives up free will to his/her Master.




FieryOpal -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/21/2014 7:11:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vgsjohn

.... my main difference between the two is free will. A slave gives up free will to his/her Master.

I anticipated the free will issue in my response, bringing a bit of reality to the fantasy.

Giving up free will is a fantasy which is not possible in real life....

I listen carefully when people talk about abdicating personal responsibility. Another fantasy.
<snip>
The definition of slave as a person who can never leave is incorrect. Both slaves and submissives can leave at any point and they usually do.

Unless one is serving a life sentence in an actual prison, free will cannot be abridged non-consensually, and it cannot be fully abdicated either.
This is one of the reasons why I don't want an M/s slave. I don't want a sub partner who elects to abdicate personal responsibility for himself or who shirks responsibility. (I don't want arrogant, cocky, defiant or passive-aggressive either, but that's not for this thread.)

Not definitive by any means, but I keep a mental dividing line thusly (based on hearing what many slaves and their Masters-Mistresses have described):

1. A sub implicitly or explicity gives or (re)affirms consent on a regular, continual basis. A slave's consent is given once and for all, notwithstanding the use of a safe word or withdrawing consent. It is therefore continuous and needs no formal or informal reaffirmation. Limits have been pre-established by mutual consent and don't ordinarily get waived, for subs and slaves alike, without crossing over into criminal abuse. Non-consensual abuse is NOT D/s-M/s nor how BDSM is practiced, btw.

2. IMO, a slave takes being collared to his/her Master or Mistress more seriously as 24/7 TPE. A sub may gives this lip service, or have a lesser and/or modified commitment level. Not always, of course.

This is probably what some Dominants mean when they tell a sub that s/he has the heart of a slave or IS more of a slave than a sub. I will also add that just because somebody says s/he is a slave, this doesn't mean s/he might be as much of a BDSM bottom (as in masochist) instead, as those calling themselves submissives, in my personal experience.

3. Both subs and slaves think of themselves as owned property. This doesn't mean they don't have basic human rights, although there are some Dominants who want to pretend this is so, who seek out s-types who want to be dehumanized or treated as sub-humans. (I'll withhold further comment here because I would not be able to resist crossing the line on criticizing another's kink/fetish from moral & ethical high ground. [:-] )

Here are a few links on differentiating between a sub and a slave which might prove helpful:

"Slave or Sub" (4/10/2014)  http://www.collarchat.com/m_4678833/tm.htm

"What is the difference between a Submissive and a Slave" (10/29/2013) http://www.collarchat.com/m_4575815/tm.htm

"Who gets to decide?" (10/8/2013) http://www.collarchat.com/m_4561798/tm.htm -- Cross-References "-=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=-"  http://www.collarchat.com/m_2373559/mpage_1/tm.htm



Vgsjohn -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 8:27:15 AM)

Here is a VERY VERY insightful writing from Master Steve Sampson

HEART OF SLAVE

A slave is an individual born with a slave spirit. No one can make an
individual have this spirit; nothing can be done to create this state in an
individual's being. No one trying hard or wishing for this sense of spirit
can develop it within themselves and no Master can cause it to occur. slave
is an extraordinary human being who is born with this slave spirit - as
much as they are born to breathe, or have gifted talents like design or music.

A slave is extraordinary, rare and most often confused until they discover
their slave spirit heart. Most slaves wander through life feeling
unfulfilled - as if they have a "dark hole" in their spirit - a hole that
can be temporarily filled with an abundance of sex, work, addictive
behavior or other whole-life-consuming factors. slaves often have a sense
of the spiritual (some become clergy), but feel this sense of spiritual
awareness to be disconnected from their desire for a Mastery/slavery
relationship. A slave has a right to feel joy and pride in their slavery
and in service to a Master.

slave is often confused seeing Dominance as Mastery; SM as completion; or
fetish focus as the fulfillment of this "dark hole" in their spirit. Many
can find enough fulfillment in these areas to develop a sense of wholeness
(often a quiet longing exists - although for what, the slave doesn't know).
Heart of slave can be actualized only when the spiritual journey occurs
that connects this "dark hole" in the spirit to the whole spirit and then
to the universe. It is a process of a painful and trusting leap of faith
that causes this connectedness to occur - a truly spiritual journey. Heart
of slave can only be complete in service to a Master and it is within this
service that the spiritual journey occurs. slavery is not about a "hard
dick or clit experience", although hard dicks and clits happen and are
enjoyed. slavery is the completion of a spirit in search of "connectedness"
in the universe.

Master Steve Sampson



angelikaJ -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 9:04:15 AM)

I don't actually couple S&M with M/s.

S&M is what some people do, but one can do it just as well as a Top/bottom as Master/slave.

I can see how what you found can have an appeal.

That is not saying I agree with it.

I am not a slave.
I am His slave.
(who has safe words btw)
My having safe words probably disqualifies me in the eyes of many.
I don't need to be real (or true) to those for whom it does.

That doesn't matter to me.
There is only one person whose opinion matters.
And for this slave, the specificity of His ownership of me; the context of that, is what has created the specialness that has become intrinsic to our dynamic.



DesFIP -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 5:59:15 PM)

A slave is someone who will do what I won't.
A sub is someone who won't do what I will.

Really, slavery is illegal. We all consent to give over authority to someone we decide merits it.

There's no requirement that all slaves wash the floor twice weekly or all owners dictate meal plans.

It's entirely up to the people involved.



neozion -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 6:47:47 PM)

we'll see it. to be a slave



PhantomViolet -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 6:54:21 PM)

Bottom - Gives up no control, only interested in receiving sensations that they agree to.

Submissive - Gives up control in the areas they're comfortable and receives whatever sensations they and their partner agree to.

Slave - Gives up all control and their only limits are what their Master decides they're not interested in doing.

The above is only my opinion and I'm sure there are many who have one that differs.



neozion -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 6:58:29 PM)

wel'll see what's happebnd.
perhaps i'm the one to bwe a slave ;)




PandoraFoxxx -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/22/2014 7:15:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PhantomViolet

Bottom - Gives up no control, only interested in receiving sensations that they agree to.

Submissive - Gives up control in the areas they're comfortable and receives whatever sensations they and their partner agree to.

Slave - Gives up all control and their only limits are what their Master decides they're not interested in doing.

The above is only my opinion and I'm sure there are many who have one that differs.


I think one person can embody all of these, especially at different stages in their D/s journey.



peppermint -> RE: Submissive AND slave (5/23/2014 7:55:12 PM)

I don't bother to define slave and submissive. One person's slave is another person's submissive. I prefer to say I'm the s part in a D/s relationship.



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