RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

NorthernGent -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 2:37:26 AM)
popeye, All is not what it seems with Winston Chuchill. He began his political career as a Conservative, then defected to the Liberals as he believed he had a better chance of becoming PM with the Liberals. When the realisation dawned that he was never going to make great inroads into the Liberal Party he defected back to the Conservative Party to increase his chances of becoming PM. You see, he was a self-centred man with no principles and morals. Hardly hero material. As for his war leadership, his role was to make a few speeches, spend most of his time painting and indulge himself with a cat. Again, hardly hero material. I'm only a British subject because the establishment have created a passport system to support ecomonic nationalism. Again, that does not equate to ownership. I personally couldn't give a flying one about a flag, passport, national anthem etc. These are completely irrelevant and simply tools to aid the grip of the establishment on wider society. As for me being a socialist, not quite. Based on your comment, you would be surprised what I do for a living. I simply don't buy the Government line that the threat to our way of life is from immigration. It is not. Since when did immigrants pass and direct the policies that governs the lives of Britons or Americans? You're spot on with Churchill being vehemently anti-socialist. He was. But that says more about him than socialism. He was brought up and well versed in a culture of hereditary wealth. Naturally, he wanted to keep hold of that and saw socialism as a threat to this outdated way of life. NorthernGent

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 8:21:23 AM)
Gent, your last paragraph there SCREAMS of socialism!

NorthernGent -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 9:12:29 AM)
lol popeye, Are you serious? You don't have to be a socialist to appreciate hereditary wealth belongs in the middle ages. Would North Americans gladly have a King, Queen, Lords, Gentry etc who haven't done a day's work in their lives? You don't need to answer :-) NorthernGent

GddssBella -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 9:36:22 AM)
G'morning all: I've come late to this thread and haven't read all of it. I will merely tip my hat to this poster for focusing on the pertinent points. As always, concise with a dash of sarcasm/irony. [sm=applause.gif] I will add one view; for all the hard working immigrants, there's a fair share of the loafers. One only needs to visit my borough (the most diverse in the city) to observe this. I would like to advocate education and skill enhancement programs to facilitate their integration into our society. Go back a few generations. I doubt all of our forefathers were doctors or such. I'm 4th generation on my father's side and 2nd generation on my mother's. I know they had to get their start somewhere. I feel it should be made part of the immigration process that all entrants into this country, if not already skilled in some viable task, should be provided with the training to improve their lives and also a mandatory English comprehension course. I'm not proposing to superimpose our values upon their cultural traditions, just make communications simpler. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 9:51:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent lol popeye, Are you serious? You don't have to be a socialist to appreciate hereditary wealth belongs in the middle ages. Would North Americans gladly have a King, Queen, Lords, Gentry etc who haven't done a day's work in their lives? You don't need to answer :-) NorthernGent I doubt it but they have CEOs who gain wealth in a not altogether different way to the aristocracy of Europe. Where do you draw a line? Whose wealth is reasonably acquired and so deserving and whose isn't? What is the acceptable wealth of an individual? How do you create wealth without an accummulation of wealth to invest and when do investment returns become unacceptably high? What would your answer be without creating a disincentive to be enterprising and creative?

NorthernGent -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 11:56:51 AM)
meatcleaver, That seems a fair enough response. I take your point that there are CEOs who cream off a business' hard labour - i.e. abuse their positions. Of course this is wrong. As is heriditary wealth - it belongs in the middle ages. I don't pretend to be a poltician so don't have the answers as to where the line is drawn. However, just because I don't have the answers doesn't mean there isn't a line to be drawn. It is the Government's repsonsibility to step in and ensure the hard labour of your average working person isn't abused to line the pockets of Execs. I fully believe in enterprise, I work in business and hold a reasonably high position. However, fat cat salaries and bonuses do not equate to enterprise, it is exactly the opposite as it takes money out of the economy and puts nothing back in as these salaries are wasted on extravagance such as yachts and champagne. Also, CEOs are not quite in the same league as the landed classes. Some may have had positions handed down to them but most haven't and at least they have worked the majority of their lives. NorthernGent

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 12:19:05 PM)
Bella, I think the topic is mostly about illegal aliens not legal immigrants.

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 1:53:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I don't pretend to be a poltician so don't have the answers as to where the line is drawn. We are all politicians. How else do we judge the politicians and make democracy work? Reneging our responsibility and letting Governnment do what it will is how we get rid of democracy. It is easy to be one of the permanent opposition and find fault with everything without stepping forward and proposing solutions or putting oneself forward and being part of the solution to a problem. This is your problem, you snipe from the sidelines accusing people but you have no proper opinions on how what gets from A to B but for the mantra of it all comes down to good education. Well many an educated politician and philosopher have come up with some pretty fucked up ideas so I can understand your reluctance to be part of the solution.

NorthernGent -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 4:11:24 PM)
meatcleaver, Listen, we could go on like this til the cows come home i.e you picking out a sentence from a couple of my paragraphs and trying to turn it in to something it is not. So we're all well versed in politics are we? We all have the skills and knowledge to turn opinions and values into cohesive and practical policy? We all know what it takes to canvass at a grass roots level and debate at a parliamentary level to turn grass roots concerns into viable policy? We are all educated to the same high standard of politicians who have invariably had the best education a country has to offer? You obviously fancy yourself as a politician. Good luck to you. I know my limitations - and a politician I am not. I have my views on possible solutions but the space allowed on these boards couldn't do such a complex issue justice. You obviously have the ability to solve this issue in a paragraph so go ahead, feel free to enlighten the world and solve issues in a paragraph that politicians have been trying to resolve for centuries. There is no real debate here, just sniping so allow me to step out and leave you holding court with your wisdom. NorthernGent

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/15/2006 4:26:27 PM)
It was you that accused someone of being a racist based on one sentence so don't say now that there is not enough space in one paragraph to expand an argument. You were happy to make an instant judgement on someone. Every time you vote you make a political judgement, unless you are saying that people with an average education are not qualified to make political judgements. Politicians aren't any more qualified to make judgements than the rest of us, they just have the urge to wield power which is the only qualifications they have.

NakisisaX -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/16/2006 5:57:07 AM)
why would someone blame the so-called "immigrants" when the corporations are immigrant owned and operated?

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/16/2006 11:46:50 AM)
If Mexicans are so oppressed then they need to rise up against their government like we did 230 years ago. I wish them well.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 7:35:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I've come late to this thread and haven't read all of it. I will merely tip my hat to this poster for focusing on the pertinent points. As always, concise with a dash of sarcasm/irony. [sm=applause.gif] I will add one view; for all the hard working immigrants, there's a fair share of the loafers. One only needs to visit my borough (the most diverse in the city) to observe this. I would like to advocate education and skill enhancement programs to facilitate their integration into our society. Go back a few generations. I doubt all of our forefathers were doctors or such. I'm 4th generation on my father's side and 2nd generation on my mother's. I know they had to get their start somewhere. I feel it should be made part of the immigration process that all entrants into this country, if not already skilled in some viable task, should be provided with the training to improve their lives and also a mandatory English comprehension course. I'm not proposing to superimpose our values upon their cultural traditions, just make communications simpler. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella ILLEGAL ALIENS Not Immigrants

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 7:37:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NakisisaX why would someone blame the so-called "immigrants" when the corporations are immigrant owned and operated? ILLEGAL ALIENS Not Immigrants. Removing criminals from their society is the right of any sovereign nation.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 8:16:57 AM)
Julia, Typically I read through an entire post before posting but I'm running off to work this morning and have only made it to the first page. So, I apologize if my post repeats what others have already said. My issue with illegal immigrants is the illegal part. My mother is an immigrant, as were my grand parents. All went through excrutiating means to get into this country. By doing so, they were entitled to the rights they were given. You and I both live in California. Our hospital system, particularly in Southern California, is going bankrupt because they are frought with patients who cross the border for help and do not/can not pay. The hospitals have no choice but to treat them. Legally, ethically, morally, they can not turn them away. The school system can not turn away thousands and thousands of children who come for an education. You and I are paying for that. Not only are we paying for it financially, but with our children's education as well. Some classrooms are slowed down because these kids coming in are far less educated than those who have been brought up in our already crippled school system. I am talking about an abundance of non English speaking children who my heart does go out to, but who ultimately dictate the pace of learning. Our last Governor, Grey Davis, wanted to issue these illegal immigrants California Drivers Licenses! At what cost to tax payers? These illegal immigrants are not contributing tax dollars in receipt for State services. You and I pay for them. At what cost, charity? Statistics show the cost of illegal immigrants come to 10.5 billion dollars annually. Nearly $1200 per family per year. Could we not use this money in our school system? (15% of our students are illegal immigrants - 15%!!) For police, fire and ambulance? For paving our roadways and improving infrastructures? For new jobs? In 1994 the residents of our fine state overwhelmingly voted for Prop 187, which sought a solution to this out of control fiscal problem. But the lawmakers of this fine state took it to court, and Prop 187 was never realized. So much for the people having a voice. So what is the solution? We can not afford to support the influx coming into this state. It is a huge financial burden to the legal, contributing residents. I do not see this as simply an employer issue; it is a State issue, and one that most of the residents here tried to fix. Who really has the heart to turn away a birthing mother who is running into an ER so her child can be born here and become entitled to the benefits of California? If the employers can aid in this problem by not employees illegal immigrants, should it be said that the schools could also contribute by not contributing free education to them? Our taxes rise higher and higher each year in this state, while we fund a huge populous who does not contribute to them. What do we do? I will have to read through the rest of this thread to see if various solutions have been discussed.

juliaoceania -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 10:18:22 AM)
I wrote a paper about this proposition you cite, and I have to say it was a very racist proposition. I voted against it at the time. I will only say that a society is judged by the way it treats the most helpless that live in it... Not to mention they wanted to turn teachers and health care workers into immigration officers and fine them/fire them if they refused to comply. It was an inhumane proposition that was a knee jerk reaction and did not punish people who do the largest wrong.. the employers hiring illegals. That was the whole point of my post, employers profit and the rest of us pay, and I did not see you address this fact in your post. If you are unable to hold those who profit the most responsible, then it will never change! If there were no jobs for illegals then they wouldn't come because they would have no reason to. On edit Isaw you mentioned my original post at the end of your statement. That was what my whole post was about. I live in Central California with a huge migrant population... my son does fine with his education. As far as anchor babies are concerned, that could be easily solved by one move... give the parents a choice, have their child claim US citizenship and be adopted by a US citizen... Or renounce the citizenship. Mexicans are very family oriented culture... they rarely adopt out their children.... I bet it would stop the anchor baby situation and it would preserve our tradition of keeping citizenship by birth.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 11:23:35 AM)
Julia, how was it "Racist?" "Hispanic", or "Mexican" is not a "race." They're Ethnic groups.

NorthernGent -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 11:27:21 AM)
"I will only say that a society is judged by the way it treats the most helpless that live in it" Very well said.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 11:27:35 AM)
I don't see employers as the sole culprit or the sole reason illegals enter this state. Many cross the border to come to a California hospital, and then return home. Many actually claim and receive wellfare, and are NOT working at all. Yes employers are a culprit, and that is why the INS cracks down on them so heavily now, but they are not the sole culprit. As for the educational system, I believe the LA County schools are in much different shape that those in Central California (and I'm jealous if you live on the Central Coast, btw!). The point of Prop 187 is it was trying to enforce laws already in place in this state - Crossing the Border without papers is illegal. Period. The vast majority of residents spoke up about it, but their voices were not heard. The issue, in my opinion, is not about a particular race. If this country were suddenly infiltrated with refugees from other third world countries at the rate California is infiltrated with residents of Mexico, we would have the same debates. Entering legally allows for screening of diseases we haven't seen in this country in ages, along with having controlled measures in place to keep track of who is here and utilizing what services. Interesting point worth mulling, about anchor babies...

caitlyn -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/17/2006 11:30:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie At what cost to tax payers? These illegal immigrants are not contributing tax dollars in receipt for State services. You and I pay for them. At what cost, charity? Statistics show the cost of illegal immigrants come to 10.5 billion dollars annually. Nearly $1200 per family per year. Could we not use this money in our school system? (15% of our students are illegal immigrants - 15%!!) For police, fire and ambulance? For paving our roadways and improving infrastructures? For new jobs? These people pay sales tax, and spend the vast majority of their money here in the United States. Citizens even close to the same economic standing, would be entitled to a tax refund, and actually generate considerably less revenue. The total cost of illegals to the taxpayer, is dominated by the attempt to keep them out, and deport them once caught. This is accurate, but would go away completely if the nation would consider going back to what made us a great nation ... "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, etc ... " I see no reason to keep these people out. They come here to work. People here employ them ... the need on both sides is obvious.

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875