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Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/25/2014 3:25:21 PM

cloudboy

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Observation:

In pictures (and porn) female submissives look so much better than male submissives. The women tend to look sexy and edgy, whereas malesubs often look like dweebs or schlubs.

The disparity in imagery is not so pronounced with male-doms and fem-doms.

Do you agree with the above?

Is this observation a product of:

(1) The models used. $$ and effort go into finding photogenic females whereas little effort is used to find photogenic men.

(2) Seeing men as "submissive" is culturally upsetting / unsettling. Seeing a man prostate, demean, lower himself -- strikes us as culturally wrong. Even photogenic men won't look good as submissives.

(3) Women see things much differently than men --- so all my observations (above) don't account for real female tastes. In other words, women do find photos of submissive men sexy and attractive. (I'm sure this depends on orientation.) If this is true and describes you -- could you say what photos of men you find attractive?

(4) In order for a man to be attractive -- he must be shown as capable and physically attractive. So, for the submissive man, he must be shown as a capable, attractive man whom a woman could dominate. In photos -- this means the man is photographed in a neutral setting: office, gym, outdoors, etc. and the submissive side implied and/or left to the imagination.

Comments and feedback welcome.

Post #: 1

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/25/2014 3:45:09 PM

DesFIP

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5) The vast majority of people who buy porn are straight men who are uninterested in seeing other men so paying for hot models doesn't translate to an increase in the bottom line.

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Post #: 2

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/25/2014 4:23:30 PM

MissToYouRedux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

5) The vast majority of people who buy porn are straight men who are uninterested in seeing other men so paying for hot models doesn't translate to an increase in the bottom line.

6) And possibly helps with said consumer's identification with the product. Hot woman with average guy = "Hell, yes, that could be me!"

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- Miss Marie

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 3

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/25/2014 7:44:50 PM

PeonForHer

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I think the way male subs appear in these pictures is mostly the result of the fact that it's male subs who are the buyers, CB. Porn that's made for femdoms - what little of it there is - is of an entirely different nature. And I'll add this for nothing: the submales depicted in said porn look a *great deal* more classy.

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Post #: 4

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 5:28:04 AM

FightingChains

Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
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Absolutely what the others have said.

If you look at gay BDSM porn generally the models are not unattractive. Both top and bottom are generally as good looking as each other. This is because the target market is looking for the gender of certain people, not as much the roles. There are very few female dominants looking at porn with submissive men.

Porn can seriously affect how male subs see themselves. It can suggest:

Sissification is a must.
That they should be weak.
That they should be unattractive and unattentive to their looks.
That they shouldn't pride themselves on who they are.
That they should be submissive at all times.
That they are pathetic.

All of this is bullshit. The majority of dominant women seem to want men who are confident, strong, handy, comfortable in themselves, selfless and wishing to please their partner. They choose to serve their partner out of a sense of strength, power and love, instead of uselessness, powerlessness and weakness. They like men who pride themselves on courting a woman, with confidence and respect, chivalry and decency.

It's really sad how submissive men's minds have been warped and twisted, and porn-obsessed subs out there are conforming to the rules of porn when... lets be honest, that's not what female dominants want. I wonder what gift a submissive really has to give a dominant if they don't first value and esteem themselves?

< Message edited by FightingChains -- 5/26/2014 5:31:41 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 5

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 6:11:27 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
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Very perceptively said, and I think these FemDom-porn outfits don't care who they get as male submissives as long as they are unpaid volunteers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains
<snip>
Porn can seriously affect how male subs see themselves. It can suggest:

Sissification is a must.

That they should be weak.

That they should be unattractive and unattentive to their looks.

That they shouldn't pride themselves on who they are.

That they should be submissive at all times.

That they are pathetic.

All of this is bullshit. The majority of dominant women seem to want men who are confident, strong, handy, comfortable in themselves, selfless and wishing to please their partner. They choose to serve their partner out of a sense of strength, power and love, instead of uselessness, powerlessness and weakness. They like men who pride themselves on courting a woman, with confidence and respect, chivalry and decency.

It's really sad how submissive men's minds have been warped and twisted, and porn-obsessed subs out there are conforming to the rules of porn when... lets be honest, that's not what female dominants want. I wonder what gift a submissive really has to give a dominant if they don't first value and esteem themselves?

This is a male-driven industry at that end. On the other end, are the sex workers and BDSM providers-for-hire who "fulfill" these fantasies. Btw, it isn't just the fin&pro-Dommes. There are also pro-subs and pro-Switches (mostly female). At any rate, male clients gets catered to, for the most part. Once established, then a provider can pick and choose what SHE wants to do, akin to a hobbyist. A single lifestyle Domme generally is seeking a primary sub partner, no different than any single lady would seek suitable husband material.

Of course, none of this warping came out of a vacuum. Shame and self-loathing can perhaps account for the desire for abject humiliation and severe punishment of a more masochistic nature. Porn addiction and brainwashing have their part in distorting submissive men's minds into regarding F/m as a role reversal, which is an insult to both genders. FemDom "training" actually consists of more de-programming than anything else, which can turn out to be an exercise in futility once a male sub has become FemDom-porn contaminated.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to FightingChains)

Post #: 6

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 7:23:07 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Thanks everyone. The general consensus is that it's a straightforward business decision by the porn industry.

Daario Naharis stripped naked might qualify as a sexy sub with an intact ego and respectable dignity.

One has to dig around to find such stuff.

For those following the show, he's actually Dario II. I like him better than Dario I. One might argue he's just seductive....however.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/26/2014 7:35:41 AM >

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 7

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 2:19:44 PM

FightingChains

Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline

I agree. Not a bad find.

Personally, for me (admittedly as a gay man) I have no interest in submissive people who have no dignity and internal strength. What dominance is there in dominating a pile of mud? How about a decent, dignified guy who still wants me in control? That says a lot better things about my choice of partner, and admittedly about myself. Seems the same approach women have to this.

_____________________________

"Get comfortable in your skin; you're going to be in it for a while."

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 8

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 4:44:39 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Observation:

In pictures (and porn) female submissives look so much better than male submissives. The women tend to look sexy and edgy, whereas malesubs often look like dweebs or schlubs.

The disparity in imagery is not so pronounced with male-doms and fem-doms.

Do you agree with the above?

Is this observation a product of:

(1) The models used. $$ and effort go into finding photogenic females whereas little effort is used to find photogenic men.

(2) Seeing men as "submissive" is culturally upsetting / unsettling. Seeing a man prostate, demean, lower himself -- strikes us as culturally wrong. Even photogenic men won't look good as submissives.

(3) Women see things much differently than men --- so all my observations (above) don't account for real female tastes. In other words, women do find photos of submissive men sexy and attractive. (I'm sure this depends on orientation.) If this is true and describes you -- could you say what photos of men you find attractive?

(4) In order for a man to be attractive -- he must be shown as capable and physically attractive. So, for the submissive man, he must be shown as a capable, attractive man whom a woman could dominate. In photos -- this means the man is photographed in a neutral setting: office, gym, outdoors, etc. and the submissive side implied and/or left to the imagination.

Comments and feedback welcome.

Is this a serious question?

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 9

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/26/2014 4:46:13 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissToYouRedux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

5) The vast majority of people who buy porn are straight men who are uninterested in seeing other men so paying for hot models doesn't translate to an increase in the bottom line.

6) And possibly helps with said consumer's identification with the product. Hot woman with average guy = "Hell, yes, that could be me!"

Uh....most of us know the difference.

(in reply to MissToYouRedux)

Post #: 10

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 5:17:23 AM

orgasmdenial12

Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
In pictures (and porn) female submissives look so much better than male submissives. The women tend to look sexy and edgy, whereas malesubs often look like dweebs or schlubs.

Actually, I think most porn involving female submissives is generic, racist, ageist, stereotypical, bondage-obsessed and generally conforms to body police specifications.

Signing on to the K&P section of certain BDSM websites, one is bombarded with hundreds of black and white pictures of skinny white girls in yawningly uninteresting bondage poses.

Just once I would love to see a fat old bird getting her ass spanked by a young, fit Dom. Encouragingly, it happens all the time in clubs, and it's great to see, but you'd never know that from the tedious insta-porn that dominates the kink world.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 11

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 5:37:40 AM

FightingChains

Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
In pictures (and porn) female submissives look so much better than male submissives. The women tend to look sexy and edgy, whereas malesubs often look like dweebs or schlubs.

Actually, I think most porn involving female submissives is generic, racist, ageist, stereotypical, bondage-obsessed and generally conforms to body police specifications.

Signing on to the K&P section of certain BDSM websites, one is bombarded with hundreds of black and white pictures of skinny white girls in yawningly uninteresting bondage poses.

Once again we are hit with the same issue: target market. The target market is men who are often assumed to be (and often because of that content are) racist, ageist, liking stereotypical white thin caucasian women.

_____________________________

"Get comfortable in your skin; you're going to be in it for a while."

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 12

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 5:44:42 AM

AthenaSurrenders

Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
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I thought K&P was based on the number of people who 'love' the pictures/writings. An inherent limitation of that system is that it will filter out all but the subjects with the widest popular appeal. If you take 100 000 kinksters, you might have 20 000 who would love to see older, larger women being spanked by young fit dominants, but 90 000 people who would love to see a skinny woman in a rope-dress (accounting for people who like both, not sloppy maths). So blow jobs, basic bondage and naked selfies of 22 year olds are always going to drown everything else out because it's the lowest common denominator.

It's kinda lame, and I'd sure like to see more diversity in both bodies and fetishes, but if it's done on popularity, it'll never happen.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to FightingChains)

Post #: 13

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 5:51:51 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Once again we are hit with the same issue: target market. The target market is men who are often assumed to be (and often because of that content are) racist, ageist, liking stereotypical white thin caucasian women.

... Or thin ethnic-looking women, e.g. the popular Asian female fetish. As another forum poster has noted (on a recent "fat" thread), many young Asian women look like (underage) girls/underdeveloped women, which has a particularly nasty appeal to creepy older dudes. I can attest to this with the Asian girlfriends I've had when I lived overseas for many years.

Just sayin'

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to FightingChains)

Post #: 14

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 6:17:18 AM

FightingChains

Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Once again we are hit with the same issue: target market. The target market is men who are often assumed to be (and often because of that content are) racist, ageist, liking stereotypical white thin caucasian women.

... Or thin ethnic-looking women, e.g. the popular Asian female fetish. As another forum poster has noted (on a recent "fat" thread), many young Asian women look like (underage) girls/underdeveloped women, which has a particularly nasty appeal to creepy older dudes. I can attest to this with the Asian girlfriends I've had when I lived overseas for many years.

Just sayin'

Of course. It's another major niche that they'll definitely target. Perhaps not in all porn as the target market is slightly smaller for that "content" but it's still there.

People need to remember that porn is a media business and they're targeting, amplifying, twisting the market to their own interests and their own assumptions. When it's not relevant to their target audience, for example the men in the movies, they're often neglected in portrayal as all focus is on target market - the women.

A very sad state of affairs, especially for those who are so porn-deluded that they lose sight completely of reality.

_____________________________

"Get comfortable in your skin; you're going to be in it for a while."

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 15

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 6:22:40 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

With enough real life experiences the stereotypes begin to seem funny.

As you note, too, it is not just the porn industry out there doing damage, you have the omnipresent media as well.

--------

Sidenote: I'm watching Fargo on FX, and one thing that stands out about it is the actors -- they're a group that defy convention, especially the female lead. (She is great: "Molly Solverson (Allison Tolman), a sheriff’s deputy, is heavyset, slow moving and bashful, but inwardly smart and ambitious. ")

Sidenote 2: I thought this was a great read: WRITER OF A CERTAIN AGE

Young, nubile women attract attention, aging women do not — on the street, on the screen, on the stage and, I fear for the novelist, on the page.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/27/2014 6:30:08 AM >

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 16

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 6:54:41 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

aging women do not —

... unless they're Dommes. We're always in demand.

Hey, why do you care what the dudes in these pornshows look like?

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 17

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 7:21:00 AM

FightingChains

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Joined: 3/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

aging women do not —

... unless they're Dommes. We're always in demand.

Hey, why do you care what the dudes in these pornshows look like?

It's not a matter of looks, but of their nature.

What does it say about me as a sub if I'm really, deep down, supposed to be weak, useless person who can't fend for himself? It attacks a man's sense of self.

It did to me. There are submissive parts of me I've had a very very very very [ x 100] hard time accepting because the concept of sub meant weak to me.

_____________________________

"Get comfortable in your skin; you're going to be in it for a while."

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 18

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 7:40:00 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

It's not a matter of looks, but of their nature.

What does it say about me as a sub if I'm really, deep down, supposed to be weak, useless person who can't fend for himself? It attacks a man's sense of self.

It did to me. There are submissive parts of me I've had a very very very very [ x 100] hard time accepting because the concept of sub meant weak to me.

I know, I was just yanking cloudboy's *chain.* Let's call for a boycott!

The whole nature of the beast=porn does nothing positive for one's self-esteem, whether male or female. The end result it warpature. (Damn, now I have to check whether that's a real word--inconclusive.) IMPO, obviously.

The sad part is, there are a lot of guys who get into this lowly worm/pathetic slave dog degradation crap. You should see some of the messages I get -- slut-whore this, slut-whore that, which feeds right into that mentality, which is not only insulting to both men and women but is an affront to male masculinity and female femininity. There are women who can't give themselves permission to be sexual beings unless they are being mistreated and degraded as slut-whores. It really is a vicious cycle.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to FightingChains)

Post #: 19

RE: Malesubs in S&M Pictures - 5/27/2014 7:44:05 AM

Delilya

Posts: 4108
Joined: 2/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

aging women do not —

... unless they're Dommes. We're always in demand.

Indeed.

_____________________________

“Love me without fear, trust me without questioning, need me without demanding, want me without restrictions, accept me without changes, desire me without inhibitions"-Dick Sutphen

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 20

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