How Do I Escape Indoctrination

How Do I Escape Indoctrination (Full Version)

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CobaltRose -> How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:03:02 AM)
I am a semi-open transgender, and I am supportive of all LGBT+ groups unless they are over-zealous (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) but for some reason the thought that I and all other LGBT+ are wrong and will go to Hell keeps popping up into my head. I cant blame my mom because she was just trying to do what she thought was right. She didnt want me going to Hell. she never abused me or anything. she was always reasonable. She didnt hate LGBT+, and just wanted people to avoid a horrible fate. This is so difficult. On one hand I think she was wrong to teach me those things, but, on the other hand, its not like she had a choice. And once again, my grandparents werent bad people, they were just trying to do the right thing. I have no doubt my mom loves me no matter what and the reason she would be against my transgenderism is because she doesnt want me going to Hell. I cant hate her for that. Anyway, sorry if i wasted all your time, i guess i just needed to get this out.

angelikaJ -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 7:40:43 AM)
There are plenty of churches that will accept you with an open heart. Some of it is related to the denomination and some of it is Pastor and/or congregation driven. Denominations such as Unitarian Universalist and Unity and Pastors such as Nadia Bolz-Weber, who is Lutheran, btw. Maybe you can find a spiritual community that will accept you and that will redirect the idea that you are hell-bound.

CobaltRose -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 7:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ There are plenty of churches that will accept you with an open heart. Some of it is related to the denomination and some of it is Pastor and/or congregation driven. Denominations such as Unitarian Universalist and Unity and Pastors such as Nadia Bolz-Weber, who is Lutheran, btw. Maybe you can find a spiritual community that will accept you and that will redirect the idea that you are hell-bound. Actually my point was normally i dont believe in hell anymore but the teachings still come up in my mind. Im wondering how to get past those teachings.

DarkSteven -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 8:19:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose Actually my point was normally i dont believe in hell anymore but the teachings still come up in my mind. Im wondering how to get past those teachings. Time.

sloguy02246 -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 8:25:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose Actually my point was normally i dont believe in hell anymore but the teachings still come up in my mind. Im wondering how to get past those teachings. Time. Very true. Oh, and while you're marking time, why not be a little proactive and watch a few episodes of "Cosmos"?

TheHeretic -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 9:55:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sloguy02246 Oh, and while you're marking time, why not be a little proactive and watch a few episodes of "Cosmos"? Why would anyone watch that shit? The producers had a fantastic opportunity, and decided they'd rather get into a pissing contest with a bunch of dumbass fundies who were never going to let their kids watch in the first place.

angelikaJ -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 11:25:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ There are plenty of churches that will accept you with an open heart. Some of it is related to the denomination and some of it is Pastor and/or congregation driven. Denominations such as Unitarian Universalist and Unity and Pastors such as Nadia Bolz-Weber, who is Lutheran, btw. Maybe you can find a spiritual community that will accept you and that will redirect the idea that you are hell-bound. Actually my point was normally i dont believe in hell anymore but the teachings still come up in my mind. Im wondering how to get past those teachings. By finding something that replaces them. Finding loving and inclusive community could help with that, and you don't necessarily have to believe to do that. You can just mingle.

dcnovice -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 11:42:21 AM)
FR When the nasty tapes in my head get too loud, the wonderful song "I Am What I Am" (from La Cage aux Folles) helps me tune them out. From the Broadway play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4VMudwlVEU Gloria Gaynor's fabulous rendition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVKkIWbPrY John Barrowman in London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW-AxyBQ1kA

dcnovice -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 12:04:15 PM)
quote: (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) I'd want to get married at my wonderful, quirky, accepting (our last three vestry leaders have been lesbians), Episcopal church because the love and support of folks there, especially during the last two years of medical hell, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life.

DesFIP -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:10:53 PM)
I also recommend you join a supportive church, one that teaches love for all as Jesus did. And not hatred for all, like Paul. Do you really believe that someone who was friends with a prostitute would automatically stone you? And in addition to the support, whether or not you go a lot, you can ask your mother to join you and see that what her pastor told her isn't the universal opinion. Instead, it was just his. And that yours tells the opposite. In addition, our parents hopefully loved us the best they could. Part of which was not making the same mistakes their parents made, and instead making totally new ones. But that's because they are just human and being human means being fallible. Learn to see her as another adult instead as the all knowing mother. Because I'm sure she will admit that she isn't perfect and simple wanted the best for her children.

CobaltRose -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:24:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) I'd want to get married at my wonderful, quirky, accepting (our last three vestry leaders have been lesbians), Episcopal church because the love and support of folks there, especially during the last two years of medical hell, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Well, in my opinion that should be up to the church.

angelikaJ -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:38:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) I'd want to get married at my wonderful, quirky, accepting (our last three vestry leaders have been lesbians), Episcopal church because the love and support of folks there, especially during the last two years of medical hell, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Well, in my opinion that should be up to the church. I am not understanding this post at all. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? He is relating his experience with his church, it's members and vestry leaders. Your post comes across to me as confrontational and I don't understand where you are coming from. His experience may not be something you have ever experienced, but it is no less true for him. Btw: dcnovice, in case you didn't know, is a gay man.

CobaltRose -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) I'd want to get married at my wonderful, quirky, accepting (our last three vestry leaders have been lesbians), Episcopal church because the love and support of folks there, especially during the last two years of medical hell, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Well, in my opinion that should be up to the church. I am not understanding this post at all. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? He is relating his experience with his church, it's members and vestry leaders. Your post comes across to me as confrontational and I don't understand where you are coming from. His experience may not be something you have ever experienced, but it is no less true for him. Btw: dcnovice, in case you didn't know, is a gay man. Im sorry im trying to say, that, per freedom of religion if a church does not want to marry a gay couple, they shouldnt be forced to. If your church will allow it, wonderful. But we should not force a church to go against its beliefs, that is wrong in my opinion. I didnt mean to offend.

DesFIP -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:46:45 PM)
Which is why we're suggesting you find a church that embraces people, not looks for reasons to exclude them. And bring your mother along so she can learn that what she was told is not a universal belief of all Christians. Indeed, far from it.

dcnovice -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:49:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: (seriously, why the hell would you WANT to get married in a church, a place where people think your lifestyle is unnatural, at best) I'd want to get married at my wonderful, quirky, accepting (our last three vestry leaders have been lesbians), Episcopal church because the love and support of folks there, especially during the last two years of medical hell, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Well, in my opinion that should be up to the church. I'm not sure what you mean by "that." My parish, with the bishop's blessing, performs both straight and gay marriages.

CobaltRose -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:51:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Which is why we're suggesting you find a church that embraces people, not looks for reasons to exclude them. And bring your mother along so she can learn that what she was told is not a universal belief of all Christians. Indeed, far from it. of course. btw im sorry if i offended i just am a strong believer in religious freedom. I didnt read the part where dcnovice said the people who run his church would be ok with it. Also i always had a problem with Christianity because it basically says that if you dont believe in God you go to an eternal punishment. Even if gay and transgender arent sins, i still go to hell along with my non-christian friends if i dont accept christ.

dcnovice -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:55:11 PM)
quote: Im sorry im trying to say, that, per freedom of religion if a church does not want to marry a gay couple, they shouldnt be forced to. If your church will allow it, wonderful. But we should not force a church to go against its beliefs, that is wrong in my opinion. I didnt mean to offend. Has anyone argued that churches should be forced to perform same-sex weddings?

CobaltRose -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 1:59:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Im sorry im trying to say, that, per freedom of religion if a church does not want to marry a gay couple, they shouldnt be forced to. If your church will allow it, wonderful. But we should not force a church to go against its beliefs, that is wrong in my opinion. I didnt mean to offend. Has anyone argued that churches should be forced to perform same-sex weddings? Actually some radical LGBT+ groups think that everyone MUST accept them and anyone who doesnt agree with their lifestyle is a homophobic bastard. It makes us rational LGBT+ look bad and adds fuel for the Anti-LGBT+ to spew their hatred. As long as a person cant vote against my rights, i hoenstly dont care what some ignroant anti-LGBT+ says. Anyway, i dont want to get into to politics and religion and have this moved to the dungeon.

angelikaJ -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 2:01:27 PM)
You are locked into the belief that because some Christian churches believe X then they all do. You can find a spiritual home that doesn't believe in X. At some point you may decide you don't want or need a spiritual home and that is fine, but having a place to go where you don't feel unwelcomed might be a nice thing right now for you.

angelikaJ -> RE: How Do I Escape Indoctrination (6/1/2014 2:05:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CobaltRose quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Im sorry im trying to say, that, per freedom of religion if a church does not want to marry a gay couple, they shouldnt be forced to. If your church will allow it, wonderful. But we should not force a church to go against its beliefs, that is wrong in my opinion. I didnt mean to offend. Has anyone argued that churches should be forced to perform same-sex weddings? Actually some radical LGBT+ groups think that everyone MUST accept them and anyone who doesnt agree with their lifestyle is a homophobic bastard. It makes us rational LGBT+ look bad and adds fuel for the Anti-LGBT+ to spew their hatred. As long as a person cant vote against my rights, i hoenstly dont care what some ignroant anti-LGBT+ says. Anyway, i dont want to get into to politics and religion and have this moved to the dungeon. You have the power of choice. You can choose not to hang out with groups that force their beliefs onto other people and you can choose to find a spiritual home that will be accepting of you and doesn't preach about hell.

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