RE: Talk about science denial

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BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/17/2014 5:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR As someone experienced at seeing a therapist, I can speak with just a little authority: One of the major reasons people end up in the patient's chair of a therapist in the first place is because their freedom of choice has become crushed. They want to exercise it, but it's become blocked. Their own minds have blocked it. The therapist's job is, in part, to help the patient break through those blocks. But the therapist can't always do that by going along with the worldview of the patient. If he were to try, he might well end up coming up against the same blocks as the patient. Very often, perhaps every time, the patient is where he is precisely because he's lost his grasp of what 'freedom of choice' really can mean. I can very easily imagine a gay man turning up to see a therapist asking how he can 'rid himself of his gayness'. The therapist, in order to do his job properly, would advise on what he knows of the various therapies on offer that claim to achieve that aim. But this is to conform to the patient's own idea of 'freedom of choice'. In theory, possibly fine. But regardless of whether it were even possible to 'eliminate one's gayness', the therapist must go further than that. This is because the patient's idea of freedom of choice may be too small. In the case of a gay man wanting to rid himself of those gay feelings, it pretty emphatically is a narrow idea of 'freedom of choice'. He just must learn that there exists the possibility, at least, that all those around him who consider gayness 'abnormal' are wrong and that, in fact, his choosing to accept his gay feelings could be right. This strategy isn't about being idealistic, it's about being realistic. (That's something that righties amongst us favour, correct?) Therapists of all flavours may do all sorts of things with their patients, but what they absolutely mustn't ever do is help their patients tie the knots in their heads even tighter. by this logic, all cosmetic surgeons should advise their clients they look FINE JUST THE WAY THEY ARE! hair stylist should tell their clients, heck you don't even need a hair brush just let your hair do what's NATURAL everyone should just let what happens to their bodies naturally happen, bad hair, bad teeth, body odor, that's all just NATURAL and should be EMBRACED see this is the FLAW in your arguments, you want to say people shouldn't be ALLOWED to seek therapy because YOU THINK they are FINE ALREADY that's not freedom of choice AT ALL, that YOU DECIDING what's best for THEM freedom of choice SHOULD be when you are given all the available data and then ALLOWED to make an INFORMED DECISION which ever way YOU WANT TO there are those who might say, put all that energy into saving my teeth, NAAA just pull them all out, put all that energy into taking care of my hair, NAAA just cut it all off and I'll go bald there MIGHT be some feel the SAME WAY about being gay, rather do away with it than deal with the hassle of being it, and who are you to tell them they shouldn't be ALLOWED that option? and it isn't even about weather the therapy works or not, there are PLENTY of people who invest huge sums of time and money in their teeth and lose them ANYHOW, people who invest a lot of effort and time in their hair an end up bald, people who invest in living healthy lives and get incurable diseases anyhow, who are you to tell them since it MIGHT not or even PROBABLY won't work they shouldn't be ALLOWED TO TRY... now go ahead and PRETEND this makes me HOMOPHOBIC all you want

PeonForHer -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/17/2014 5:26:12 PM)
Thank you for your contribution to this debate, BitYakin.

DomKen -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/17/2014 5:40:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR As someone experienced at seeing a therapist, I can speak with just a little authority: One of the major reasons people end up in the patient's chair of a therapist in the first place is because their freedom of choice has become crushed. They want to exercise it, but it's become blocked. Their own minds have blocked it. The therapist's job is, in part, to help the patient break through those blocks. But the therapist can't always do that by going along with the worldview of the patient. If he were to try, he might well end up coming up against the same blocks as the patient. Very often, perhaps every time, the patient is where he is precisely because he's lost his grasp of what 'freedom of choice' really can mean. I can very easily imagine a gay man turning up to see a therapist asking how he can 'rid himself of his gayness'. The therapist, in order to do his job properly, would advise on what he knows of the various therapies on offer that claim to achieve that aim. But this is to conform to the patient's own idea of 'freedom of choice'. In theory, possibly fine. But regardless of whether it were even possible to 'eliminate one's gayness', the therapist must go further than that. This is because the patient's idea of freedom of choice may be too small. In the case of a gay man wanting to rid himself of those gay feelings, it pretty emphatically is a narrow idea of 'freedom of choice'. He just must learn that there exists the possibility, at least, that all those around him who consider gayness 'abnormal' are wrong and that, in fact, his choosing to accept his gay feelings could be right. This strategy isn't about being idealistic, it's about being realistic. (That's something that righties amongst us favour, correct?) Therapists of all flavours may do all sorts of things with their patients, but what they absolutely mustn't ever do is help their patients tie the knots in their heads even tighter. by this logic, all cosmetic surgeons should advise their clients they look FINE JUST THE WAY THEY ARE! hair stylist should tell their clients, heck you don't even need a hair brush just let your hair do what's NATURAL everyone should just let what happens to their bodies naturally happen, bad hair, bad teeth, body odor, that's all just NATURAL and should be EMBRACED see this is the FLAW in your arguments, you want to say people shouldn't be ALLOWED to seek therapy because YOU THINK they are FINE ALREADY that's not freedom of choice AT ALL, that YOU DECIDING what's best for THEM freedom of choice SHOULD be when you are given all the available data and then ALLOWED to make an INFORMED DECISION which ever way YOU WANT TO there are those who might say, put all that energy into saving my teeth, NAAA just pull them all out, put all that energy into taking care of my hair, NAAA just cut it all off and I'll go bald there MIGHT be some feel the SAME WAY about being gay, rather do away with it than deal with the hassle of being it, and who are you to tell them they shouldn't be ALLOWED that option? and it isn't even about weather the therapy works or not, there are PLENTY of people who invest huge sums of time and money in their teeth and lose them ANYHOW, people who invest a lot of effort and time in their hair an end up bald, people who invest in living healthy lives and get incurable diseases anyhow, who are you to tell them since it MIGHT not or even PROBABLY won't work they shouldn't be ALLOWED TO TRY... now go ahead and PRETEND this makes me HOMOPHOBIC all you want No not homophobic. Incredibly stupid and you're still pointlessly using caps like it improves your bad posts somehow. Please do what ever you did to get moderated again as soon as possible.

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/17/2014 7:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR As someone experienced at seeing a therapist, I can speak with just a little authority: One of the major reasons people end up in the patient's chair of a therapist in the first place is because their freedom of choice has become crushed. They want to exercise it, but it's become blocked. Their own minds have blocked it. The therapist's job is, in part, to help the patient break through those blocks. But the therapist can't always do that by going along with the worldview of the patient. If he were to try, he might well end up coming up against the same blocks as the patient. Very often, perhaps every time, the patient is where he is precisely because he's lost his grasp of what 'freedom of choice' really can mean. I can very easily imagine a gay man turning up to see a therapist asking how he can 'rid himself of his gayness'. The therapist, in order to do his job properly, would advise on what he knows of the various therapies on offer that claim to achieve that aim. But this is to conform to the patient's own idea of 'freedom of choice'. In theory, possibly fine. But regardless of whether it were even possible to 'eliminate one's gayness', the therapist must go further than that. This is because the patient's idea of freedom of choice may be too small. In the case of a gay man wanting to rid himself of those gay feelings, it pretty emphatically is a narrow idea of 'freedom of choice'. He just must learn that there exists the possibility, at least, that all those around him who consider gayness 'abnormal' are wrong and that, in fact, his choosing to accept his gay feelings could be right. This strategy isn't about being idealistic, it's about being realistic. (That's something that righties amongst us favour, correct?) Therapists of all flavours may do all sorts of things with their patients, but what they absolutely mustn't ever do is help their patients tie the knots in their heads even tighter. by this logic, all cosmetic surgeons should advise their clients they look FINE JUST THE WAY THEY ARE! hair stylist should tell their clients, heck you don't even need a hair brush just let your hair do what's NATURAL everyone should just let what happens to their bodies naturally happen, bad hair, bad teeth, body odor, that's all just NATURAL and should be EMBRACED see this is the FLAW in your arguments, you want to say people shouldn't be ALLOWED to seek therapy because YOU THINK they are FINE ALREADY that's not freedom of choice AT ALL, that YOU DECIDING what's best for THEM freedom of choice SHOULD be when you are given all the available data and then ALLOWED to make an INFORMED DECISION which ever way YOU WANT TO there are those who might say, put all that energy into saving my teeth, NAAA just pull them all out, put all that energy into taking care of my hair, NAAA just cut it all off and I'll go bald there MIGHT be some feel the SAME WAY about being gay, rather do away with it than deal with the hassle of being it, and who are you to tell them they shouldn't be ALLOWED that option? and it isn't even about weather the therapy works or not, there are PLENTY of people who invest huge sums of time and money in their teeth and lose them ANYHOW, people who invest a lot of effort and time in their hair an end up bald, people who invest in living healthy lives and get incurable diseases anyhow, who are you to tell them since it MIGHT not or even PROBABLY won't work they shouldn't be ALLOWED TO TRY... now go ahead and PRETEND this makes me HOMOPHOBIC all you want No not homophobic. Incredibly stupid and you're still pointlessly using caps like it improves your bad posts somehow. Please do what ever you did to get moderated again as soon as possible. yes its much easier to just call me STUPID than write a counterpoint to what I said I was moderated? hmm news to me... don't ya get gold letters when you're moderated? I've never gotten a single one I have gotten letters informing some of my posts were pulled because I quoted other posts the mods found were against ToS never even been warned I was pushing the envelope unlike you I don't INSULT people because they don't agree with me BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish its really to bad you don't understand capitalization or italics or quotation marks or bold text, they are just ways to draw attention to a phrase or word, but to PRETEND it means my point isn't valid welllllllllll I am not going to change how I have written for decades because some teens on the net several years ago DECIDED it means it yelling. you or anyone else doesn't want to read what I write cause I use a different literary style than you are quite welcome to use the hide/ignore button you really got a THING for me don't you DK, I mean if every single thing I say is SOOO STUPID why haven't you put me on ignore, but you NEVER EVER MISS a chance to tell me how STUPID I AM a NUN told me one time, "LOVE ME OR HATE ME at least I forced reaction!" thank you for giving me that power over you! SMILE

dcnovice -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/17/2014 7:52:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Thank you for your contribution to this debate, BitYakin. Well, the juxtaposition was an interesting glimpse into the variety of posting styles.

tweakabelle -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 12:58:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish You might benefit by seeking a second opinion on the merits and demerits of this claim, BY.

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 1:25:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish You might benefit by seeking a second opinion on the merits and demerits of this claim, BY. I don't need a second opinion, you or others don't like that's fine. hit the hide button and you don't ever have to see it again. DK's compulsion to comment on it in EVERY SINGLE REPLY to me is quite childish...

Moderator7 -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 5:15:50 AM)
Hi everyone. Remember our feisty section is less moderation. All are welcome to participate- enjoy the discussion.

dcnovice -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 7:43:17 AM)
FR http://blog.petflow.com/parents-love-their-kids/#MzgfYltf2ZW91TfB.01 The video describes one couple's reaction to their transgender child. I found it interesting and moving. Ymmv, of course.

DomKen -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 10:17:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish You might benefit by seeking a second opinion on the merits and demerits of this claim, BY. I don't need a second opinion, you or others don't like that's fine. hit the hide button and you don't ever have to see it again. DK's compulsion to comment on it in EVERY SINGLE REPLY to me is quite childish... Actually I put up with your blithering for months. Now I don't have to. So if it bugs you to be told that your stupid posts are stupid and violate a basic tenet of internet usage then make smarter posts and stop using caps for no purpose.

PeonForHer -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 4:15:42 PM)
BitYakin, no offence meant - it's just that your posts are generally so simple that nobody knows what to say to you in reply. Do you think you might try to weigh and balance things a little before commenting? I think it might help.

GotSteel -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/18/2014 5:00:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin by this logic, all cosmetic surgeons should advise their clients they look FINE JUST THE WAY THEY ARE! Well a good portion of the time frankly they should. However, you're making a bad analogy. The reason the analogy is unsound is that cosmetic surgery is actually possible. If there was a medical procedure that would actually turn homosexuals into heterosexuals than you're analogy would be valid and a lot of the people against reparative therapy would be in favor of this hypothetical treatment for those who wanted it.

SadistDave -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 2:53:54 AM)
I thought this was interesting.... Apparentlly there has been some news about the former poster child for reparative therapy who decided to come out as gay.... again. Interesting stuff. He's sorry he tried it, promoted it, etc.. Reparative therapy didn't help him at all he says in his letter and in the end did him more harm than good. In his books though he's pretty clear that reparative therapy was a last resort before he committed suicide. I'm fascinated though, that his ex-lesbian wife is still loving the cock though, and believes that her life is more fulfilled now than it was before going straight. She remains dedicated to religious based reparative therapy. This is why I believe it should be a CHOICE. It clearly helps some people, even if it isn't in the way they hoped. John Paulk may describe his life as a living hell now, but I find it hard to believe that it took him 21 years of marriage to come to that conclusion. Even so, reparative therapy did help him with that whole not being dead thing. -SD-

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 3:34:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer BitYakin, no offence meant - it's just that your posts are generally so simple that nobody knows what to say to you in reply. Do you think you might try to weigh and balance things a little before commenting? I think it might help. do you really think saying "no offense meant" changes an OFFESNIVE comment to a non offensive comment? and you call ME SIMPLE? and if they are SOO SIMPLE, then it should be simple to refute them RIGHT? to point out the FLAW or ERROR but instead certain people just NAME CALL. AKA ATTACK the POSTER ever heard of Occum's razor? goes something like, usually the simplest answer/explaination is the correct one I am thinking this relaxed moderation is a failure, seems SOME PEOPLE believe it means they no longer discuss/debate/refute anything, they just DECLARE the poster STUPID and its NUFF SAID!

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 3:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish You might benefit by seeking a second opinion on the merits and demerits of this claim, BY. I don't need a second opinion, you or others don't like that's fine. hit the hide button and you don't ever have to see it again. DK's compulsion to comment on it in EVERY SINGLE REPLY to me is quite childish... Actually I put up with your blithering for months. Now I don't have to. So if it bugs you to be told that your stupid posts are stupid and violate a basic tenet of internet usage then make smarter posts and stop using caps for no purpose. now you don't have to? really then WHY DO YOU? apparently you feel COMPLELLED TO... could I get a moderator to clarify something for me please? In this area am I to understand now we no longer have to respond to the post we can now just simpley ATTACK THE POSTER? bother me? HAHAHAHA I actually get a KICK out of watching you get all in a lather over it and guess what, I'll continue to write as I have for decades, the fact that it BUGS YOU, is just a PLUS

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 3:51:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moderator7 Hi everyone. Remember our feisty section is less moderation. All are welcome to participate- enjoy the discussion. not sure if that was directed at me, but in no way was I suggesting anyone "not participate" but rather if they don't care for what I say or how I say its their OPTION to not read or comment personally I think people getting all twisted up over HOW I write is pretty comical

BitYakin -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 4:14:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin by this logic, all cosmetic surgeons should advise their clients they look FINE JUST THE WAY THEY ARE! Well a good portion of the time frankly they should. However, you're making a bad analogy. The reason the analogy is unsound is that cosmetic surgery is actually possible. If there was a medical procedure that would actually turn homosexuals into heterosexuals than you're analogy would be valid and a lot of the people against reparative therapy would be in favor of this hypothetical treatment for those who wanted it. I'm not so sure it is a bad analogy, there are lots of things in the medical field that "don't work" and/or make things worse but aren't banned lets look at it from a slightly different angle as far as I know no one has been able to find the "GAY GENE" or any real physical difference that causes homosexuality, so until they do its a mental state can we agree to that? then by extention we should say all mental states that aren't "acceptable" shouldn't be attempted to be corrected, that basically phsycologists have NO REAL FUNCTION, cause people are just born how they are and we should just ACCEPT them as they are... the way I see this is, you're all saying every philia out there should be accepted cause that's just how those people are don't get me wrong here, I have no problem with the homosexual community in the least, different strokes for different folks, I find it pretty hypocritical though when they say MY FETISH/KINK should be accepted but yours if just to far out there there are ALOT of philias out there that will either get you jailed or at the very least get you mandatory therapy

thishereboi -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 7:08:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer BitYakin, no offence meant - it's just that your posts are generally so simple that nobody knows what to say to you in reply. Do you think you might try to weigh and balance things a little before commenting? I think it might help. Not sure how it works on your side of the pond, but generally over here when someone starts a sentence with "no offence" you can be pretty sure what they are about to say will be offensive. But somehow that's supposed to excuse the bs that's about to come out of their mouth. They seem to think adding "no offence" will make them look like less of an asshat and it doesn't.

DomKen -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 7:47:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave I'm fascinated though, that his ex-lesbian wife is still loving the cock though, and believes that her life is more fulfilled now than it was before going straight. She remains dedicated to religious based reparative therapy. This is why I believe it should be a CHOICE. It clearly helps some people, even if it isn't in the way they hoped. John Paulk may describe his life as a living hell now, but I find it hard to believe that it took him 21 years of marriage to come to that conclusion. Even so, reparative therapy did help him with that whole not being dead thing. While she says she is remaining true to their marriage vows she makes no statement about still being straight. You read that into her statement.

DomKen -> RE: Talk about science denial (6/22/2014 7:49:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin BTW GET OVER THE CAPS THINGS, you just look childish You might benefit by seeking a second opinion on the merits and demerits of this claim, BY. I don't need a second opinion, you or others don't like that's fine. hit the hide button and you don't ever have to see it again. DK's compulsion to comment on it in EVERY SINGLE REPLY to me is quite childish... Actually I put up with your blithering for months. Now I don't have to. So if it bugs you to be told that your stupid posts are stupid and violate a basic tenet of internet usage then make smarter posts and stop using caps for no purpose. now you don't have to? really then WHY DO YOU? apparently you feel COMPLELLED TO... could I get a moderator to clarify something for me please? In this area am I to understand now we no longer have to respond to the post we can now just simpley ATTACK THE POSTER? bother me? HAHAHAHA I actually get a KICK out of watching you get all in a lather over it and guess what, I'll continue to write as I have for decades, the fact that it BUGS YOU, is just a PLUS Not compelled. I'm a sadist and you're way too easy dumbass. LOL

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