quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

For years now I have read many threads where people complain that a dominant or a submissive behaves incorrectly, and that they are not what they say they are... as if it is a deceit.

Pessimists tend towards paranoia, so they lean towards the negative view of everything! Their fears come from a delusion that people are out to "get over" on them, so they state the negative as some sort of self-protection. They are the "I'm on to you" crowd. (One of the things I like about your posts, Bhruic, is that you gather information before assessing. THAT looks like intelligence, to me.)

Also, I believe that the immediate assumption that others are deceitful says a whole lot about the one who assumes it. The way I see it, people who are dedicated to honesty don't see liars everywhere. Liars see liars everywhere.

I'm not an expert, but from what I've learned of anthropology and linguistics, I think of the conflict over labels and meanings as a necessary process in forming culture. Language symbolizes shared meaning. Some of the "challenges" of the usage of certain words to represent relationships or roles appear to be an attempt to validate consensus. Of course, I think this because I think of BDSM as a culture, and it's still evolving.

Now, what makes that hilarious, is the number of vanilla, patriarchal types who desperately need to live in a hierarchy. And, since the BDSM community has no leader, no central, unifying text and no clearly defined boundaries, the only way those types can interact with others here is in their vanilla, hierarchical ways. They are limited and stifled because of a total lack of experience with egalitarian communication.

And, stating the obvious here - not everyone is nice.



< Message edited by BecomingV -- 7/30/2014 5:52:36 AM >

_____________________________

Talk about loving travel!!! My BDSM journey to Switch took me to these places...
Previously known as:
sub - TwoHeartsBeatOne
Domme - Lady Q

(in reply to Bhruic)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Two great comments in a row... wishing once again there was a like option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
should we not consider first that people who do not exactly appear to be what they say they are are searching for their place, and not lying?

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a friend not too long ago. He is a gay man, living in a big metro area, and is having trouble finding that "special someone". I spent quite a while discussing this with him, telling him that, honestly, I couldn't see what the problem would be. He's intelligent, attractive, good sense of humor, etc. Well, apparently, he was told he's "not gay enough". Now, really, what in the world is that supposed to mean? And, more importantly, why is he letting other people define who he is for him?

Same thing in this arena. I have been told that I'm not a "true sub"....and surely, when I move to that point, I will be told that I'm not a "true slave". For me, it's interesting, because the vast majority of people who have mentioned this to me are in some way unhappy with their own lives. I remember conversations over the years with someone close to me, who insisted upon telling me that I *should* be doing this or that, if I was going to be a "real submissive". I was respectful in listening, but really did not give too much weight to it. After all, this is someone that, in all the time I've known him (going on 10 years) has not had any semblance of a stable relationship.

I have yet to see any definitive explanation of dominance and submission other than, of course, the general "umbrella" definitions. I *do* enjoy speaking with people about it, and find that I do learn a lot from that, but I am very wary of people who believe that they know the "true meaning" of these relationships. In my experience, these people tend to either have other things seriously wrong with their lives, or feel the need, for whatever reason, to degrade another person's relationship in order to make themselves feel better. At the end of the day, it is up to *me* to define myself and find my own fulfillment. And, I've had no problems finding people who believe that I am "sub" enough, or "slave" enough to enter relationships with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

For years now I have read many threads where people complain that a dominant or a submissive behaves incorrectly, and that they are not what they say they are... as if it is a deceit.

I think this view sometimes ignores some basic truths about where dominant or submissive ideation comes from.

For some, the identity of being dominant or submissive is inherent in their personality. They are dominant or submissive in their daily lives and in their interactions with everyone, and this is something they bring in to their BDSM activity. I get the impression that this is what people are referring to when they refer to a "true" dominant or submissive. I wonder how common this actually is though... and how appealing it would be? It seems to me that someone who was inherently and completely dominant wouldn't take much interest in pleasing a sub, and someone who was inherently and completely submissive would not require much domination, and would be boring.

For others, being dominant or submissive is the exact opposite of their inherent nature. The excitement lies in giving themselves over to a behavior that is somewhat alien to them. To submit or to dominate in a safe context, when it is not your daily experience, can be scary, thrilling, and fulfilling.

Modern life requires a certain amount of responsibility, confidence and even dominance to survive... and I think this explains why there seems to be so many more subs than Doms.

Most people, of course, lie somewhere along a spectrum between those two poles. It's the complex and sometimes tricky balance between those two extremes that make things workable in BDSM, it seems to me.

While there will always be deceitful people in every context of life... the point of this post is: Given the challenging introspection and real world experimentation required to discover where on the spectrum things work for us, should we not consider first that people who do not exactly appear to be what they say they are are searching for their place, and not lying?

Re reading this, I realize it is a long winded way of asking "Why do we seem to jump towards judgement?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
He's saying the extreme of submission is passivity. How is that wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
He's saying the extreme of submission is passivity. How is that wrong?

Because I strongly believe that submission is something you do actively. You choose to do. You actively embrace.

You don't just sit there suffering quietly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Then the ultimate dominant must be a guy who slips roofies into some unsuspecting woman's drink. Or an orderly who rapes elderly in nursing homes.

I don't find rapists to be dominant. And that's what your mention of Sleeping Beauty says. That raping someone who cannot resist or fight you off makes you to be oh so strong and powerful.

The fact that you find that so appalls me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Then the ultimate dominant must be a guy who slips roofies into some unsuspecting woman's drink. Or an orderly who rapes elderly in nursing homes.

I don't find rapists to be dominant. And that's what your mention of Sleeping Beauty says. That raping someone who cannot resist or fight you off makes you to be oh so strong and powerful.

The fact that you find that so appalls me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

For years now I have read many threads where people complain that a dominant or a submissive behaves incorrectly, and that they are not what they say they are... as if it is a deceit.

I think this view sometimes ignores some basic truths about where dominant or submissive ideation comes from.

For some, the identity of being dominant or submissive is inherent in their personality. They are dominant or submissive in their daily lives and in their interactions with everyone, and this is something they bring in to their BDSM activity.....

For others, being dominant or submissive is the exact opposite of their inherent nature. The excitement lies in giving themselves over to a behavior that is somewhat alien to them. To submit or to dominate in a safe context, when it is not your daily experience, can be scary, thrilling, and fulfilling.

Re reading this, I realize it is a long winded way of asking "Why do we seem to jump towards judgement?"