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RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 6:07:25 AM   
cloudboy


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Joined: 12/14/2005
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I don't get the queer responses. I thought you appreciated facts and good information and wouldn't act so odd when it was offered to you.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 6:13:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Did you read the part where you simply made the point I had just made?
No. You didn't really do that.
And if you had, you'd get why the comparison country to country would have to be adjusted for those costs first.
So yes, it really is.


My claim was that Dr.'s won't make enough money if they are paid a fixed amount, by patient. That was to DK's question as to why it won't work here.

You claimed Dr.'s in other countries make enough under this payment scheme.

I countered by asking if Dr.'s there make the same amount of money. The don't, even after the costs are adjusted.

But, thanks for playing.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 6:41:48 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Did you read the part where you simply made the point I had just made?
No. You didn't really do that.
And if you had, you'd get why the comparison country to country would have to be adjusted for those costs first.
So yes, it really is.


My claim was that Dr.'s won't make enough money if they are paid a fixed amount, by patient. That was to DK's question as to why it won't work here.

You claimed Dr.'s in other countries make enough under this payment scheme.

I countered by asking if Dr.'s there make the same amount of money. The don't, even after the costs are adjusted.

But, thanks for playing.



don't you think it depends on how every patient vs visit is worth and not the method? if a generla practitioner gives 10 visits a day and charges 50$ a visit will make more or less 120 grands a year, if he has 2000 registerd patients an is paid 60$ a patient will make 120 grands a year. And what is enough is subjective... of course if a med school graduate has 300 grands of student loan debt is in a different situation than someone living in a country where college costs 1200$ a year.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 6:44:04 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		try 12000, I can't think of a country where tuition is less than 10 grand a year

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 7:18:11 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.practicelink.com/magazine/vital-stats/physician-compensation-worldwide/
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/02/charts-day-doctor-pay-america-and-other-countries
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/physician-fees-and-salaries-in-the-us-and-other-countries/


Four different articles widely differing amounts.

Safe to say the overall is that doctors make more in the US. (course they have to pay for their health insurance here in the US.........LOL)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/8/2014 7:19:32 AM >

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(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 7:24:28 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

They don't, even after the costs are adjusted.


Got proof of that?

Because they seem to be doing fine.

Unlike the US, where doctors are fleeing the profession (apparently, cloudboy didn't explain it to them yet).

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 7:34:57 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Did you read the part where you simply made the point I had just made?
No. You didn't really do that.
And if you had, you'd get why the comparison country to country would have to be adjusted for those costs first.
So yes, it really is.

My claim was that Dr.'s won't make enough money if they are paid a fixed amount, by patient. That was to DK's question as to why it won't work here.
You claimed Dr.'s in other countries make enough under this payment scheme.
I countered by asking if Dr.'s there make the same amount of money. The don't, even after the costs are adjusted.
But, thanks for playing.

don't you think it depends on how every patient vs visit is worth and not the method? if a generla practitioner gives 10 visits a day and charges 50$ a visit will make more or less 120 grands a year, if he has 2000 registerd patients an is paid 60$ a patient will make 120 grands a year. And what is enough is subjective... of course if a med school graduate has 300 grands of student loan debt is in a different situation than someone living in a country where college costs 1200$ a year.


Any basis in reality for those numbers?

    quote:

    Doctors in the specialty doctor grade earn a basic salary of between £37,176 and £69,325. (my add: roughly $63.6k -$119k


Median physician salaries in the US
A General Practitioner's median salary is $136k. That's more than a Scale Value 10 (looks to be a tenure step scale) Specialty Dr. in the UK. Specialists in the US get even higher pay (Median salaries for: Internal Medicine: $171k; Radiologist: $285k).

Median Indebtedness after 4-year Medical School (US) in 2012: Private School -> $190k; Public School -> $160k

The limit on public universities for tuition is £9000 (roughly $15390) a year, or £54k ($92k) for the 6-year medical course.

You can make an awful lot more money here, all things considered.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 7:36:01 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

They don't, even after the costs are adjusted.

Got proof of that?
Because they seem to be doing fine.
Unlike the US, where doctors are fleeing the profession (apparently, cloudboy didn't explain it to them yet).


And, why are they fleeing the profession?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 7:49:18 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		See those posty things with people's names other than yours?

And the links they post?

Read those things.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 9:37:00 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		It was just an example, your numbers just say in the uk medical doctors work for less, not that one method can raise different amounts, but I'm sure you understood it's just you want to be annoying to not discuss the topic.

By the way 1200$ I just converted the 1000€ of taxes due here in italy, in germany is probably even cheaper, the uk is very expensive for european standards, the 300000$ was a number I estimated with 200k + a 50% of intersts. Other numbers where just to make an example but I didn't missed it so much.

so medical doctor study just 4 years before specialization in the US?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 9:49:18 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I don't get the queer responses. I thought you appreciated facts and good information and wouldn't act so odd when it was offered to you.



I thought you wouldn't simply dismiss data, evidence, and long social experience.

So there's no problem. The doctors will be glad to hear it. I hope their insurance companies understand too.

Adding you to the block list. This is a ridiculous waste of time.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 10:16:52 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

try 12000, I can't think of a country where tuition is less than 10 grand a year


mine was 700€/year for undergraduate school and 850€/year grad school, my friends in a different city were paying around 1000€ could be more or less depending on the family income. In germany at the time university was free I think it's still cheaper than that today.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 7/8/2014 10:20:24 AM >

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 10:34:09 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		I stand corrected then :P For us it's about 6000 a semester if you exclude first year student residence and the student meal plans. Not terribly expensive but it can be pretty costly, especially when our current conservative government isn't helping much in the way of lowering our costs.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 10:52:18 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

I stand corrected then :P For us it's about 6000 a semester if you exclude first year student residence and the student meal plans. Not terribly expensive but it can be pretty costly, especially when our current conservative government isn't helping much in the way of lowering our costs.

And if they did the money would come from taxes which come from?
Just because you pay for something via taxes doesn't mean you don't pay.
"the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money"

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 11:04:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The problem with capitalism is sooner or later the corporations fuck you out of all your money.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 11:24:43 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
See those posty things with people's names other than yours?
And the links they post?
Read those things.


Yeah, I do read those. Well, there are a few that I have hidden, but, for the most part, I read all the posts.

Soooo, anything on why Dr.'s are fleeing?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 11:25:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		as he said, take a fuckin read cuz it is in there, or look it up yourself.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 11:42:02 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

I stand corrected then :P For us it's about 6000 a semester if you exclude first year student residence and the student meal plans. Not terribly expensive but it can be pretty costly, especially when our current conservative government isn't helping much in the way of lowering our costs.

And if they did the money would come from taxes which come from?
Just because you pay for something via taxes doesn't mean you don't pay.
"the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money"


you really like that quote, don't you?
Anyway what kind of services a governament provides or not has nothing to do with socialism, it has with the concepts of public interest and public expenditure (it is actually untrue that taxes pay those services).
Public interest is what a governament is supposed to pursue, in some countries having an educated and healty people is considered a primary need (like defence, law enforcement, infrastructures etc.), for the whole society so it is a duty of the governament to organize an education or a health care system affordable for the population.
This services are paid by public expenditure that comes before tax collection since we don't use anymore currencies directly linked to silver or gold. So the country prints the money, (in us or eurozone the country issue bonds) with those paper pays the services, those money circulates producing added value and the governament collect taxes to control inflation and debt. The reason you cover the most expensive services with income and corporative taxes' collection and not for example applying fees is that you don't want lower income people to run out of money and so destroy the internal market, that's another way to say what mnottertail just wrote.
Considering capital and private initiative the solution to all the problems is as moronic as considering it to be state ownership and production for use.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 12:25:55 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

I stand corrected then :P For us it's about 6000 a semester if you exclude first year student residence and the student meal plans. Not terribly expensive but it can be pretty costly, especially when our current conservative government isn't helping much in the way of lowering our costs.

And if they did the money would come from taxes which come from?
Just because you pay for something via taxes doesn't mean you don't pay.
"the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money"


And the problem with capitalism is that eventually all the capital is allocated to the highest earners, and without redistributing that capital, it simply remains at the top which causes stagnation and major disparity between rich and poor. (hint, hint, you can see it all around you right now in your twisted "free" country). I'd take a democracy with social programs that invest in people and push people forward in life than a broken system like the one in the US where it's like the wild west 21st century style.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom - 7/8/2014 1:21:01 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Unlike the US, where doctors are fleeing the profession (apparently, cloudboy didn't explain it to them yet).


Your claims and information get worse and worse:

Doctors are not "fleeing the profession."

I never figured you to respond to absolute impeachment in this manner, but I was wrong.

GotSteele is one of the best posters on this forum, and it was eye opening to see you try and treat him like an ignorant child.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/8/2014 1:22:15 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 240
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