RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 6:40:54 AM)

Lucy just wanted to show her beautiful butt pic again in defense of the defenseless Ken. (this statement is completely true)
And screw you...

The media coverage surrounding the upcoming challenges has mainly focused on the first part of that argument, as reproductive rights advocates point out that women need access to affordable contraceptive methods regardless of their boss’ personal beliefs about birth control. However, the second part threatens to have incredibly far-reaching ramifications for women and doctors in this country, too. Essentially, if Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood are successful, they’ll win the right to refuse to extend coverage for doctor’s visits that include discussion about certain forms of contraception, like IUDs or the morning after pill.
“It’s frankly a rather radical idea — the idea that someone can say that if your visit to your doctor is going to receive payment from your insurance company, then your doctor can’t talk to you about certain subjects,” Adam Sonfield, a senior public policy associate at the Guttmacher Institute, explained in an interview with ThinkProgress. “Counseling and education about contraception has been a basic part of a medical visit forever, even before the methods themselves were covered. Before we had prescription drug coverage, we certainly had coverage for the visit to your doctor, and there were never any limitations about what you could talk to your doctor about.”
And particularly when it comes to contraceptive counseling, simply skipping over certain methods isn’t an option. In order to obtain informed consent from their patients, doctors are obligated to explain the full range of options available.
According to Clare Coleman, the president and CEO of the National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association (NFPRHA), informed consent is the “bedrock” of medical ethics. “Coverage of counseling is essential. It’s a conversation about intention and life stage as much as it’s a conversation about the actual prescription — in family planning, we have to meet the patient where she is, and find the method that’s right for her,” Coleman told ThinkProgress. “That conversation needs to be careful and detailed before the patient agrees to any medical intervention.”
So, since many doctors wouldn’t feel comfortable limiting the contraceptive options that they tell their patients about, this could force the employees who work for companies like Hobby Lobby to make a difficult choice. If they want their doctor’s visit to be covered by their insurance company, they’ll have to avoid talking about birth control altogether. Or, if they do want to discuss contraception, they’ll have to pay for the visit out of their own pocket. They’ll essentially have to choose between a potential financial burden or a potential health burden.
Or they may not understand what’s at stake in the first place. Coleman pointed out that, in a scenario where bosses are allowed to refuse to cover contraceptive counseling, their employees might not realize those restrictions exist. “Having a white card in your wallet does not mean you understand how your insurance works,” she noted. “The patient will not necessarily come armed with this information.”
To make matters more complicated, companies that withhold coverage for some types of services often resist full disclosure. They may not explain to their workers exactly what their plan excludes, or provide them with a referral to access those services elsewhere.

From the AMA
Opinion 8.08 - Informed Consent

The patient’s right of self-decision can be effectively exercised only if the patient possesses enough information to enable an informed choice. The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment. The physician's obligation is to present the medical facts accurately to the patient or to the individual responsible for the patient’s care and to make recommendations for management in accordance with good medical practice. The physician has an ethical obligation to help the patient make choices from among the therapeutic alternatives consistent with good medical practice. Informed consent is a basic policy in both ethics and law that physicians must honor, unless the patient is unconscious or otherwise incapable of consenting and harm from failure to treat is imminent. In special circumstances, it may be appropriate to postpone disclosure of information, (see Opinion E-8.122, "Withholding Information from Patients").


Physicians should sensitively and respectfully disclose all relevant medical information to patients. The quantity and specificity of this information should be tailored to meet the preferences and needs of individual patients. Physicians need not communicate all information at one time, but should assess the amount of information that patients are capable of receiving at a given time and present the remainder when appropriate.
http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/physician-resources/medical-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion808.page

also http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/17/1/gpr170102.html
but keep pretending that its not important and religious bullshit (not factual) must win over womens rights to all options for BC, and ignore my other questions to you and keep playing your sad little game.

Not being able to discuss all options on the table for birth control is crass. You do not see it, but it doesnt surprise me. The unwanted pregnancy numbers are spiralling in states where they have cut title X and other family planning to the bone. fucking ignorance about it, is rife and you are certainly guilty of parsing it with little regard for the reality for women.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 8:16:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Regardless of the sideshow, mark me down as agreeing with Ginsburg.
In a decision of startling breadth, the Court holds that commercial enterprises, including corporations, along with partnerships and sole proprietorships, can opt out of any law (saving only tax laws) they judge incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs.
----
The exemption sought by Hobby Lobby and Conestoga would…deny legions of women who do not hold their employers’ beliefs access to contraceptive coverage.
----
Any decision to use contraceptives made by a woman covered under Hobby Lobby’s or Conestoga’s plan will not be propelled by the Government, it will be the woman’s autonomous choice, informed by the physician she consults.

What happens now if an organization opposes the use of antibiotics on religious grounds?


That wouldn't necessarily get an automatic exemption. Certainly, it's possible it could, but it would have to be argued up through the courts.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 8:29:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Lucy just wanted to show her beautiful butt pic again in defense of the defenseless Ken. (this statement is completely true)
And screw you...


Thanks for the offer, love, but I think we'd both be fighting for control...

quote:

Not being able to discuss all options on the table for birth control is crass. You do not see it, but it doesnt surprise me. The unwanted pregnancy numbers are spiralling in states where they have cut title X and other family planning to the bone. fucking ignorance about it, is rife and you are certainly guilty of parsing it with little regard for the reality for women.


How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

A woman can still talk to a Dr. about any fucking (or non-fucking) thing she wants. If, by some raping of privacy rights, her employer gets to know what she discussed, did she still not discuss it?

You support statism. You'd much rather see government make sure everyone gets what he/she needs. I'd rather the free market do that. No one wants anyone to go without anything he/she needs. No one. The only difference is in how we get there.

Btw, all the stuff you quoted doesn't change the lying by Ken or by Slate.




Lucylastic -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 8:57:53 AM)

why should any women have to explain what happens at her doctors appointment to her boss, that is the WHOLE fucking point, and what Ken says and slate says, the AMA, the dissenting ladies on the SCOTUS. o and millions of women.

PS a screw also means its a type of fastener characterized by a helical ridge, known as an external thread or just thread, wrapped around a cylinder.
dont get your hopes up... LMAO




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:24:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You. Read the article again. The Slate article is specifically about the 4 kinds. They do state that since gyn visits are never only about contraceptives it might have a chilling effect as doctors and patients don't want to get challenged on whether the visit can be covered by insurance.
I then pointed out that the expansive ruling made by the Court covering all forms of contraception even effected men.
You then lost your mind.


You're the dumbass, Ken.

Here's the Slate headline: "Hobby Lobby Wants to Stop Doctors From Talking to Its Employees About Contraception"

Not really true, is it?

And, they go on:
    quote:

    Arguments in front of the Supreme Court start next week in the Hobby Lobby case. Hobby Lobby is suing for a religious exemption from the Department of Health and Human Services mandate requiring that employer-provided health insurance cover contraception. Most of the coverage of the case has focused on Hobby Lobby's objection to the contraception itself and how, if the business prevails, its employees will have to pay out of pocket for things like birth control pills or IUDs. But, as Tara Culp-Ressler at ThinkProgress explained on Wednesday, Hobby Lobby and their co-plaintiff, Conestoga Wood Specialties, are also objecting to insurance plans covering "related education and counseling" for contraception. "



Yet more lying. And, you're lying when you posted the article. Hobby Lobby wasn't preventing their employees from hearing about "contraception," but 4 forms of contraception, and none of those 4 were "birth control pills," at least not in the way that phrase is typically used.

You know it. You knew it. You fucking lied. Now, you're holding your ass in your hands, trying to get your thumbs out of it while having both feet in your mouth.

So, now, Ken, you can go tuck your lying sack of shit ass in the corner and think about reading for comprehension.


That is selective quoting dumbass. and since you read the article you know it. You even quoted the second paragraph of the story where it is made clear. Here I'll do it again.
quote:

"Essentially, if Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood are successful, they’ll win the right to refuse to extend coverage for doctor’s visits that include discussion about certain forms of contraception, like IUDs or the morning after pill."

Taking things out of context to attempt to change the meaning is dishonest and that is what you did. I know that for some reason you are upset by the full implications of this ruling but that is no reason to go off the deep end.




quizzicalkitten -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:30:55 AM)

Or Lucy, The states could pass a law that its required to be covered and scotus can uphold it.

The reason Hobby lobby won is because of this terrible document that is in place called the Constitution. No other reason, not because they hate women, or the world is ending and the sky is falling but because the constitution is REALLY clear on the subject 4 people said Fuck the constitution we dont care, 5 didnt.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits Congress from the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.


Requiring someone who believes abortions are a sin, to cover them is impeding the free exercise of religion. Regardless of what you believe on the drugs, they believe that getting rid of a fertilized egg is an abortion...

Now recourse is the states passing laws saying all birth control needs to be covered. The likely hood of scotus upholding such a law because its not from congress is high. But that requires the states to get off their lazy asses and do something instead of defering to a larger power....




Lucylastic -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:35:12 AM)

well we know that the states that NEED to pass that law wont. In fact they are doing everything in their power to dismantle it and a lot of funding to other programs.

And amending any constitutional rule on the first is about as likely that I would be eligible to be POTUS or the popes third wife




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:35:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:39:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten

Or Lucy, The states could pass a law that its required to be covered and scotus can uphold it.

The reason Hobby lobby won is because of this terrible document that is in place called the Constitution.

WRONG!

Hobby Lobby was not a constitutional case. It was not brought as a 1st amendment case. It was brought as a RFRA case. Some people had hoped that the Court would go so far as to actually give corporations full First Amendment religious rights but Alito's ruling stuck to RFRA. So a future Congress can undo this whole thing by simply getting rid of RFRA which was always a bad law in the first place.




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 9:43:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

well we know that the states that NEED to pass that law wont. In fact they are doing everything in their power to dismantle it and a lot of funding to other programs.

Actually some states do have independent laws requiring all employers provide contraceptive coverage and Hobby Lobby didn't challenge any of those so it is unclear what happens in those states. At this time Hobby Lobby and the other companies still have to obey those laws. They could go back to court again challenging those laws in state court but I'm thinking this has been such a PR disaster for them they want this whole thing to go away.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 2:44:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
why should any women have to explain what happens at her doctors appointment to her boss, that is the WHOLE fucking point, and what Ken says and slate says, the AMA, the dissenting ladies on the SCOTUS. o and millions of women.
PS a screw also means its a type of fastener characterized by a helical ridge, known as an external thread or just thread, wrapped around a cylinder.
dont get your hopes up... LMAO


I don't think any women should have to explain what happens at their Dr. appointment to her boss.

And, that wasn't the claim by Ken or Slate.

But, do you know the difference between a hex head cap screw and a bolt? A piece of threaded rod is not a screw, though it does have external thread.





DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 2:49:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That is selective quoting dumbass. and since you read the article you know it. You even quoted the second paragraph of the story where it is made clear. Here I'll do it again.
quote:

"Essentially, if Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood are successful, they’ll win the right to refuse to extend coverage for doctor’s visits that include discussion about certain forms of contraception, like IUDs or the morning after pill."

Taking things out of context to attempt to change the meaning is dishonest and that is what you did. I know that for some reason you are upset by the full implications of this ruling but that is no reason to go off the deep end.


Selective quoting? How is that? Slate made a claim and included a quote from a different source that didn't agree with what it said.

You made a claim that is based on nothing but your hate for conservatives.

FYI, those are lies, Ken.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 2:50:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.


Pretty simple? Do the billing codes specify which birth control methods were discussed?




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/5/2014 5:42:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.


Pretty simple? Do the billing codes specify which birth control methods were discussed?


They will have to. They'll be as specific as they need to be.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 7:32:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.

Pretty simple? Do the billing codes specify which birth control methods were discussed?

They will have to. They'll be as specific as they need to be.


So you don't know if they have a billing code for each of the 20 FDA approved methods of birth control?!?

Huh. Imagine that.




DomKen -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 11:43:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.

Pretty simple? Do the billing codes specify which birth control methods were discussed?

They will have to. They'll be as specific as they need to be.


So you don't know if they have a billing code for each of the 20 FDA approved methods of birth control?!?

Huh. Imagine that.


For each of the methods? No. That's not what billing codes do. But if the lawsuits get that specific then discussion of each specific contraceptive will get its own billing code and actually it will be more than just the 20 FDA approved.




thompsonx -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 12:06:45 PM)

You support statism. You'd much rather see government make sure everyone gets what he/she needs.


I'd rather the free market do that.

It is pretty obvious that the not"free market" has failed miserably. Yet you wish to continue with a failure...why?

No one wants anyone to go without anything he/she needs. No one.


You and your possie of the rich certainly do.






thompsonx -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 12:19:02 PM)


ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

As I further noted, unless they can get through the Dr.-Patient confidentiality issue, how are they to know what was discussed during a Dr. visit? Sorta makes their "win" a bit less meaningful, doesn't it?

A punkassmotherfucker wants women to lie to and cheat their employers by fraudulantly obtaining prohibited services. You are really some piece of work.




thompsonx -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 12:21:21 PM)


ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I claimed Hobby Lobby wanted X. (truth)
Slate (in an article linked to by Ken) claimed Hobby Lobby wanted Y. (a lie)
Ken said the Supremes expanded their ruling to include Y. (truth)
Ken claimed Hobby Lobby wanted Y. (a lie)
I acknowledged Ken was correct that the Supremes expanded their ruling to Y, but Hobby Lobby only wanted X. (truth)
Ken said since the ruling was expanded to Y, Hobby Lobby wanted Y. (a lie)
Lucy just wanted to show her beautiful butt pic again in defense of the defenseless Ken. (this statement is completely true)
Ken told me to read the article that he clearly either didn't read, or didn't comprehend. (another complete truth)

I think that catches you up.

It catches us up on your moronic spin.
It catches us up on your ablity to lie to yourself and everyone in earshot.
You have no idea what hl wants or does not want. All you know is what was filed in court. You have not read any of the oral arguements.
In short you are a fucking moron who has no clue what he is talking about except it is in line with the talking points of your possie.






BamaD -> RE: SCOTUS on HOBBY LOBBY and religious freedom (7/6/2014 12:24:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How is it not possible to talk to a Dr. about all forms of contraception? I didn't state it, but I think it's silly for them to not cover a Dr. visit where those 4 types of BC were discussed. I did raise a question about HIPAA laws and Dr.-Patient confidentiality. Because of those things, how is an employer going to even know what was discussed? How could they deny payment without knowing what was discussed?

Do you know what billing codes are? The insurance industry will have to create a billing code that means discussed contraceptives. After that it's pretty simple. And if you read the stuff the doctor and insurance gave you, you waived some confidentiality in regards to billing.

Pretty simple? Do the billing codes specify which birth control methods were discussed?

They will have to. They'll be as specific as they need to be.


So you don't know if they have a billing code for each of the 20 FDA approved methods of birth control?!?

Huh. Imagine that.


For each of the methods? No. That's not what billing codes do. But if the lawsuits get that specific then discussion of each specific contraceptive will get its own billing code and actually it will be more than just the 20 FDA approved.

Will they also have a code for discussing the weather and if the person owns firearms?




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