RE: subs and mental illness

RE: subs and mental illness (Full Version)

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FieryOpal -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/1/2014 11:23:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP One other item, a preponderance of psych students pick that major in order to learn about their own problems. Which suggests that you personify your statement that anyone who does this is crazy. The other thing is that just because someone has never sought help or been diagnosed doesn't mean they're healthy. I have known people to have lumps and refuse to see a doctor because they fear a cancer diagnosis. Didn't make them healthy, just meant they were less likely to be successfully treated. Same with psychological and neurobiology disorders. And the sub telling you all about her ass problems? She's a he, just wanting to try out his wank material on some naive girl. Which is you. You said everything I was thinking, Des, so thanks for saving me the keystrokes. OP, if you think so many subs are messed up, there are just as many bottoms, S/switches, Tops and Dominants proportionally with mental health issues. Enablers are no less messed up than those they enable in co-dependent relationships. Plus chances are, anyone responsible for messing up their kids or another person's childhood innocence was a vanilla, not a kinkster. Meditate on that one. Furthermore, just FYI, a perv is not a kinkster, because perverts don't respect limits or recognize non-consensuality.

submissionholly -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/1/2014 11:30:47 PM)
thanks for the helpful posts, and I acknowledge my crappy attitude and poor word choices. I'm doing a masters (erm skinner was a wee while ago now, we're WELL past that over simplified mechanistic thing now...), but my attempt to simplify the field wasn't very good/was offensive. Sorry. I WAS ranting. Again, sorry. I've just been getting a bit frightened and confused about how serious some people issue's are, but yes I think the internet encourages sharing and soul searching, so therefore skewed perspective. I should just worry about random people less probably. people who join the army are up to 50 times more likely to come from a broken home or to have lost a parent when young, and I was wondering if some sort of similar something is going on in in D/s, in your opinion. I was told in a lovely PM its not so and that there has been actual research on this, I haven't found a proper paper on it, so I thought personal opinions would be interesting Ah I just realised my bit about toxicity wasn't in the OP! Does this bit help? I guess with the messed up posts I see, the relationships could be described as behaviourally toxic; the relationship does not seem to give room for other "normal" behaviours to occur. Heroin is usually behaviourally toxic. Shopping and playing video games can also be behaviourally toxic. While these behaviours are reinforcing in the short term, they're obviously detrimental and dysfunctional in the long term. A non-drug (shopping, skydiving, whatever) day is never as good as a day with your particular fix. This is all fine and dandy until your fix isn't available for whatever reason. By "real" BDSM relationship I mean a 24/7 slave type situation, as opposed to kinky bedroom sexy fun times. Its this kind of relationship that seems to have much more potential to become toxic quickly and/or easily of course a major depressive isn't the same as chronic mental illness; i used that statistic to attempt to illustrate that what is considered "mentally healthy" is actually very rare. I've had the whole gamut of mental illness, but in my own experience I was unable to have any kind of adult functional relationship, let alone a non-vanilla one, until my issues were under control. I don't see how you can be crazy (again, poor word choice; I tend to use it like african-americans are allowed to use the "N" word but whites aren't, but none of you are mind readers :/) and have those issues resolved via a sexual relationship. Thats not special to BDSM, but the unique nature of it would seem to exacerbate the issue?

angelikaJ -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/2/2014 8:29:18 AM)
Take a look at the figures for both the incidence of mental illness and sexual assault for women. And now realise that that the one in 4 or one in 5 figures apply to every woman you encounter. Some of them are into some form of BDSM or D/s or Kink and some are not. More are not into it than are. And then try to accept something else: sometimes we ask what we should wear or how we should wear our hair or any number of other things such as that, not because we aren't able to but because pleasing our partner gives us much joy.

DesFIP -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/2/2014 6:39:22 PM)
Try reading Dr Gloria Brame, PhD and very well regarded. I am surprised you didn't try researching this first. Hell, the sheer fact that the DSM-V no longer equates outliers in sexual pleasure with paraphilias should have told you that you were barking up the wrong tree. I assume you did know that?

submissionholly -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/3/2014 2:31:34 AM)
ok, so what I think had happened is that a) the dozen or so (intelligent & functional) kinsters I know are violently opposed to any kind out D/s relationship outside the bedroom b) the couple of lifestyle acquaintances I have, have serious (almost call-the-police) issues c) the internet is full of vocal extremists/fantasists d) americans (the majority of english speakers on these kinda forums) have a rather uh, different, psychology culture e) i've read the (ancient & cruddy) psychoanalytic "research" that says we must have been abused as children. None of the new research has actual numbers, or is couched in terms that are loaded with emotive or tautological BS behaviourists often disagree with the DSM because it's based on cognitive psyc and psychiatry. the term "sexologist" makes me laugh and laugh, again I think this is an american thing that just doesn't translate to the rest of the world very well? NZ is still a pretty post-colonial place, and academics tend to blush if you even say the word sex. Even 'arousal" can elicit nervous giggles! I've heard of Brame and wouldn't be able to read any of her books without descending into indignant rage. At least partially because she lives in seclusion with a menagerie and if you google image search her she's holding a fake broadsword...this is most probably academic snobbery but seriously? I could keep writing but not sure I can make myself clearer without a longish essay and APA referencing I'll just stop clicking on threads like "is it ok to rape your slave?", and try to keep my argument hat in the bottom drawer

crazyml -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/3/2014 3:08:10 AM)
[ED just to acknowledge the numerous typos and grammar travesties in my reply - no time to fix them alas, so they will have to remain as proof of my ineptitude] quote: ORIGINAL: submissionholly ok, so what I think had happened is that a) the dozen or so (intelligent & functional) kinsters I know are violently opposed to any kind out D/s relationship outside the bedroom That's cool, and I'm sensing that you're acknowledging that there are plenty of intelligent and functional kinksters who would be embracing of a D/s relationship that extended beyond the bedroom. quote: b) the couple of lifestyle acquaintances I have, have serious (almost call-the-police) issues Again... I think you're recognising that this doesn't necessarily mean all. quote: c) the internet is full of vocal extremists/fantasists Well that's definitely true! Can't argue with you on this one. quote: d) americans (the majority of english speakers on these kinda forums) have a rather uh, different, psychology culture Yes, that's true. Certainly (at the risk of copping some grief for saying it), in my experience Americans tend to be more likely to insist that people should be allowed to make their own choices whereas Europeans (as an example) tend to draw the line where the law should intervene more narrowly. There have been some cases when I have thought "Fuck, that person should be hospitalized" when an american friend has insisted "they should be allowed to do that shit..." - I appreciate that I am generalizing, and will accept the bitckbats that that deserves) quote: e) i've read the (ancient & cruddy) psychoanalytic "research" that says we must have been abused as children. None of the new research has actual numbers, or is couched in terms that are loaded with emotive or tautological BS behaviourists often disagree with the DSM because it's based on cognitive psyc and psychiatry. the term "sexologist" makes me laugh and laugh, again I think this is an american thing that just doesn't translate to the rest of the world very well? NZ is still a pretty post-colonial place, and academics tend to blush if you even say the word sex. Even 'arousal" can elicit nervous giggles! I've heard of Brame and wouldn't be able to read any of her books without descending into indignant rage. At least partially because she lives in seclusion with a menagerie and if you google image search her she's holding a fake broadsword...this is most probably academic snobbery but seriously? I could keep writing but not sure I can make myself clearer without a longish essay and APA referencing I'll just stop clicking on threads like "is it ok to rape your slave?", and try to keep my argument hat in the bottom drawer Don't stop clicking on those threads! My attitude to words like "slavery" and "slave rape" have evolved as a result of interacting with people on those threads - I'm not saying that either of them is for me, but understanding the nuance that some people bring to those things has been really interesting, and somewhat mind opening for me.

Redhusky -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/3/2014 3:20:41 AM)
for some might be mental illness but it's not for all everybody likes something or more than one thing

DesFIP -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/5/2014 3:36:18 AM)
About not wanting to be the final decision maker in the relationship, do you want to be a CEO or prime minister? If not, doesn't that make you dysfunctional that you don't strive to be the top decision maker? If it's okay in terms of your public life, then why isn't it okay to make that choice in your private life? I'm still wondering why it's okay in your eyes to be beaten but not to love more than one person. And if you're going to discount neurobiology and how that impacts psychology, you should never practice. There's more and more research about how the mind cannot be separated from the brain. Therapists who don't believe in sending people to psychiatrists for medication are dangerous, they prevent people from being helped.

RemoteUser -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/9/2014 4:11:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissionholly "I studied both" oh thats nice, care to share what discipline you actually studied? Have actually worked in? Your thoughts on how your study/experience has influenced how you think of BDSM? I had this thing called life get in the way, but to address your anger: I studied both, as in, my double major was psychology/biology, and I minored in philosophy. As for what I work in, make an appointment with me, we'll go from there. My studies don't influence my BDSM practices, because what I think and what I do are two totally separate animals, as they should be. Why do other posters concern you? Are you in immediate danger? Have you contacted Support?

Arturas -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/18/2014 9:33:55 PM)
quote: it seems to me that slaves (as opposed to bottoms, kinksters etc) are avoiding the situations and decisions that make them functional adults (what should I eat? what should I wear? who should I spend my time with? what should I think?), instead, giving those decisions to another to make for them. I don't think this characterizes those I know. None of the submissive women I've had the privilege of knowing are like this. Two were school teachers, one a technical support person, a masseuse, a salesperson. None were deadbeats nor am/was I a part of "what should I eat or what should I wear?". There was one that wanted to be a robot girl but that is no fun so I threw her back into the pond, quickly. None of these women were mentally ill. They are different than vanilla women which only means a Dom needs to understand them, duh right?

PandoraFoxxx -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/18/2014 9:50:37 PM)
I'm gonna have to agree in full with you, Arturas. (I'm shocked [;)] ) It is very easy for many to discount another human being as "mentally ill/unstable/what have you" when their desires do not mesh with their own. They find this threatening. They are afraid, and that fear turns into a witch hunt and accusations that aren't founded in anything other than harmful stereotypes. This goes for every possible situation, D/s, political, how to raise your children and how you should walk your fucking dog. It's ridiculous. Some folks are just judgemental busybodies. I don't think most people even stop to think and realize that is what they're even doing. I think at some point, even if it's super trivially tiny, we are all guilty of being "that guy."

Tatsuchan18 -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/22/2014 12:40:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissionholly I just genuinely worry about SOME posters, seems like they need serious therapy rather/before a BDSM partner For me, having a scene is therapy. Well, to be exact it's more like going to therapy, the spa, and eating ice cream all at once. :D I don't really have any mental issues or anything, but I get a lot of positive feelings from BDSM and engaging in a scene. I really feel it's a healthy thing for me. I'm able to face the tougher things life has to throw at me because I can look forward to awesome scenes. :3

DesFIP -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/22/2014 10:15:52 AM)
http://www.alfredpress.com/books.html Your research should also have turned up Raven Kaldera. His new book might be helpful to you. Also many of the other books from Alfred Press.

kinksterparty -> RE: subs and mental illness (7/30/2014 8:11:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: preytolife I think the loss of control aspect can healthy or unhealthy depending on how it's implemented. Is someone looking for a faceless role or a relationship? Is someone able to function on their own, or is BDSM a crutch? Is their relationship enabling or disabling them? quote: ORIGINAL: preytolife We just have an unfortunate tendency to attract people who'd like to use BDSM as therapy. Agreed 100%. I know kinksters who use BDSM as a supplemental form of self-therapy, after they have analyzed themselves and came to terms with the reasons they are the way they are. Once the cause is known, therapy can be implemented, and eventually a balance can be restored. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who focus on the symptoms of their particular deviations (I don't want to say "mental illness" or "neuroses", it doesn't have to be as severe as that), rather than trying to understand the cause. It's self-indulgent escapism at its finest. No different than alcoholism or social detachment via videogames. At best, this will perpetuate the problem, at worst it will make it, well, worse. Fortunately, there are experienced and caring Dom/mes out there, who would actually take the time to discuss the issue with the sub/slave, and figure out how to structure the relationship in such a way that it helps to treat the cause of the problem, rather than indulging the symptoms in an endless cycle. UNfortunately, there are also some Dom/mes who seem either content to enjoy the sub/slave's sexuality w/o any attempts to fix any problems, or may actually prefer to keep them unstable, i.e. predictably controlled. quote: ORIGINAL: preytolife Various resources online have made "submission" an incredibly attractive idea to people with very certain problems. The fact is that most people don't have any idea of what's realistic. Again, you're absolutely right, but I'd like to reiterate that escapism is escapism, whether it's "submission" or alcohol or drugs or MMORPGs. I don't think CollarSpace is any worse in this regard than the local liquor store, or Blizzard Entertainment.

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