RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (Full Version)

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Arturas -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/9/2014 2:01:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The drivel is in the asswipe you spew.................

like here:

"Remake the world". He means remake the world, our world, America and one cannot remake anything without tearing it down first. Remake does not mean enhance or change for the better. Remake means to make again. You don't remake a house by repainting it. You tear it down and build another.

Horseshit, a bunch of hyperbole without a bit of fact. Remake doesnt have that sense. You can remake a house by remodel for instance.

But in any case the post is shitwork. You must have spent your youth in the pews listening to nutsackers hating America.



You don't remake anything by repainting it. Drivel is still drivel even if you add more.

quote:

re·make (r-mk) tr.v. re·made (-md), re·mak·ing, re·makes To make again or anew. n. (rmk) 1. The act of remaking. 2. Something in remade form,





mnottertail -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/9/2014 2:27:00 PM)

You maybe don't understand English. I do not accept that as a defining definition, for starters. But given that rather piss poor definition you have completely and cretinously (but we expect no less), glossed over make again.

Repainting is repainting, there is a word for it. But you have demonstrated site-wide repeatedly and continuously that you cannot pour piss out of a boot nor find your own ass with two hands and a flashlight, yet you are haranguing us with this imagined intimate knowledge of motivations of someone who you do not know, will never know, nor have any insight of.

So, renovated and rebuilt is also remake, and your bit of masturbation of fantasy there is still fucking drivel.

You are the fucking laughingstock of this site though, I will give you that.

So your grand pronouncement hinges on a word whose meaning you do not understand, just like you dont understand much else. Who is going to buy into your slobbering bullshit but other nutsackers who also pronounce stupid shit, we have your track records and frankly, we have our hands full keeping you from destroying America.




RemoteUser -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/9/2014 3:23:45 PM)

From an outsider's point of view, what we see exercised in border security to the south of the States, compared to what you have as border security with us in the north, is just plain brutal - although things up here, you'll be happy to know, are getting worse: the last time I visited America, in April, I was pulled over and detained long enough to make me miss my flight, because I "visit too much".

I was told that because I choose to spend all four weeks of vacation I get yearly in the States, I visit too often. I asked for a definition of too often. Even said, give me a number, something to measure this by, or how am I going to know when I'm violating your laws? No answer was given, in fact I was told to shut up while they ripped my carry-on apart.

I know better than to provoke an asshole, so I couched the next questions as nicely as I could. I repeated my question about what was too much time and was told, "The amount you spend here." I pointed out I spend my money in America to their benefit, and wanted to know why a Canadian like myself was unwelcome. The guard then decided to try and force me to remember not only every day I had been in America since January 1 2012 (and I remembered most of them, which made him madder), he wanted to know the details of each day. Any wonder I was late for my flight?

I was finally released when they hit the kink section of my carry-on. The guard grabbed at the condoms and one of the packages broke open, smearing his uncovered hand with lubricant. He was thoroughly disgusted and let me go because, "You fucking sick Canadians don't belong here, just go!"

I could have reported him, but you can't fix an asshole and I wasn't about to jeopardize my travel further, so I chalked it up to dealing with an asshat. I am not looking forward to passing through Customs again when I go back down in a couple of weeks.

Now that's how Canadians get treated. I can only guess at how a Mexican gets treated but by all accounts, it's much worse.

As for "limiting government", which seems a grandiose term for which hand gets to spend the taxpayer's money, there is nothing wrong on paper with trying to cut corners to run a business - err, country - more efficiently. I work for an American corporation that has a branch in Canada. I know all about trying to cut corners, because I'm management. The company I work for is horrible at predicting where money should be spent so when they screw up, they "cut corners" by taking resources from places where they are needed and telling you to produce the same output. The Canadian government is slowly taking on this same mentality, and since we emulate a lot of American policy, it doesn't seem too farfetched to say y'all are probably doing something similar. The problem with on paper is that you look at figures, without looking at the actual tasks or staffing involved, which eventually leads to something going horribly, horribly wrong.

In an oversimplified example, say the government had a budget of one billion dollars to split between education, health care and border security. Each group says, we need half of that. That's not going to happen, someone is taking the hit and getting less money. Do you short change your educators and hope your next generation doesn't become simpletons? Do you stick it to the doctors, and hope there isn't an outbreak, or that people are ok with clinics shutting down? Do you lighten up security and risk having your country exploited? You could say on paper that all three should take the hit and tighten their belts, and hope it all works out, but if there's a population explosion then education and health are going to get hit much harder. You can't limit something arbitrarily, and there are too many factors in play to leave it to a vote, and hope that the majority is educated on all the pertinent criteria. If you need to limit the government then do it sensibly, for the welfare of your country, and with (dare I dream) a little transparency so that everyone can say, oh, right, this is why it's a hard choice (rather than just going with the loudest campaign slogan).

Regarding Obamacare, the idea is a prime example of on paper from what I've seen. It targets the middle class. The upper class has the funds to fend for itself. The lower class used to be able to cut deals or work with doctors who had sliding scale fees, but I've discovered from people in that very situation that Obamacare doesn't account for that. Everyone gets treated the same, in theory, and for the middle class it could lighten the load of medical bills, so, it may work for the majority. If the actual practice of Obamacare makes health care too hard for the poorest people to access, though, then it's just another model of the same thing you had before, where health is something you pay for, and those without cash, go without period. Even with all the issues Canada health care has, one thing I can't bitch about is how it's funded - through taxation. You make more, you pay more into the collective pool of money that covers your health. You make less, you pay less. But everyone still gets the same treatment. I'm ok with paying more into Canadian health care if I make more. My real concern is the shortage of doctors, nurses, in some cases beds, and with wait times for dealing with injuries.

Getting back to the OP, though: I think what America really needs to do is overhaul the way it decides to "limit" itself, and trust its people more to tell them how decisions are reached. I also think the border security at both ends needs an overhaul, so that more resources can be applied to enforcing immigration, rather than turning away potential revenue while generating PR nightmares. (One thing that has always confused me: if "too many illegals" - i.e. Mexicans - are getting through your borders, they're not doing it legally, so why not focus more on manpower and deportation than building anything...since they're getting through anyways? Any insights would be appreciated.)

Mind you, this is an outsider's view. It's worth as much credence as you give it.





joether -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/9/2014 7:43:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: Alright, here's what I've been on for years. You start with a fence. It's very simple. People say, 'Oh, fences don't work. You make a ladder.' Well, then you build two fences, triple strand fences. San Diego did that in the mid 90's and within a decade, the illegal immigration rate at that point was reduced by 90% and people ended up going through other places like Arizona.

Heres your answer Joey


Why is the defenses at the White House so good at keeping unauthorized inviduals from gaining entry from the fence?

I cant believe I'm going to insult your intelligence with this one....

Which distance is greater?

A ) The southern border between California to Texas (i.e. the land access route).
B ) The area the White House sits upon.

But that doesn't say why your 'reply' is pathetic. Just one piece of many....

The White House has multiple defense systems. Some are not visiable (sensors in the ground, some cameras, guys with big guns around the corner. While others are: the fence, big guys with guns, some guys with big dogs. And that fence is actively monitored 24/7, 365 days of the year. Their response time is measured in seconds due to the area coverage of security systems.

The southern border does not have anywhere near this level of defenses. How many people could hop the border if they would be under overwhelming forces within seconds? Not very many. But reality is, that to bring the same level of defense coverage that surrounds the White House, to the southern border would be an enormous cost. Layers of logistical security systems to embed, maintain, and upgrade frequently. It would the equivalent of setting up a sixth branch of the military! That's 'big government' by conservative definition(s).

Limited government calls for a vast and deep cut in government's ability to do many things it can do right now. Reducing funding, makes it quite hard to maintain current levels of security on that border. So how does less funds equal better border security? It doesn't! Because the conservative philosophy here is so blatantly flawed.

Why should the other forty-six states have to pay for a problem that seems to need local resources to handle?




joether -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/9/2014 8:27:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
quote:

I do not see how these two concepts, 'Tighter Border Security' and 'Limited Government' could operate together. Since 'Tighter Border Security' would mean more people being paid with government funds (local, state, and/or federal). And that those of 'Limited Government' want less people in government (i.e. less people being paid government money).

Limited Government means limited to the Constitutional purpose for forming this nation. The Government is allowed and required to perform these functions with none more important than the other.


Limited Government, is code in conservative philosophy for "doing the same thing your doing now, with one millionth the resources". It has never worked in this nation. Its never worked in any of the other nations on the planet with limited style governments (past and present). Nor have conservatives given a well thought out, stable, deeply defined plan. The plans that are seen in the public are 'pie in the sky' ideas that are full of conservative codes and completely without actual details.

The folks that are in favor of Limited Government, desire to cut the federal budget by half. And what do you think that will do to the economy of the nation? You think what happened in 1929 or 2007 was bad? It'll be a 'tea party' compared to the feast of destruction that will follow. The US Military would be cut in half, tens of millions would lose their jobs (from the public and private sectors, not to mention 'down stream' jobs), and many logistical systems would come screeching to a half under the overwhelming problems that would be invoked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
1) Establish justice. (the law, the courts, enforcement)
2) Insure Domestic Tranquility. (peace within)
3) Common Defense. (militia, armed forces)
4) Promote the general welfare (transportation, commerce)
5) Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.


At a very basic level, I agree on this....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
James Madison wrote about the General Welfare clause, saying that giving Congress the ability to tax and spend without focus on their Constitutional limits will basically allow them to makes exceptions without limit. So, this means that
General Welfare is not welfare for the poor. Nor is it health benefits for those who cannot pay for them by forcing others (remember the blessing of liberty?) to pay for them in taxes or forced premiums.


Is Mr. Madison still alive? in 2014? No? So your taking someone that has no concept of reality in 2014 and applying 18th century economic thought and theory to solve problems that are worlds more complex and complicated then when Mr. Madison was walking on the Earth. Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?

Mr. Madison was arguing that 'General Welfare' be tied to one of the concepts that you listed above in your '1-5 points'. However, the nation has changed and grown by levels and definitions that outstrip Mr. Madison's words. If Mr. Madison were alive today, given time to examine the country in-depth and some updated educational lessons; would you still use the same defining qualities from Federalist Papers #41? It would be a hard argument to say 'yes' or 'no'. The more likely answer would be somewhere else.

The concept of America was not to create a pseudo-ideological country that wrote the US Constitution in stone, never to be updated or changed. The founding fathers believed the nation's people in the future would figure better ways of operating the nation. Taking in their original ideas, an expanding upon them. If they were to give good quality health and infrastructure care to the citizens in the 18th century for a fraction of the cost, would they do it? Yes, because both allow greater levels of liberty to be experienced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So, Conservatives are for making the government do what it is supposed to do and nothing else because doing anything else always takes the blessings of liberty away from some to do something else for another group. This is Obamacare. With Obamacare, one must pay a premium for health insurance if you are a citizen. You are forced. Forced is not a blessing of liberty, it is the opposite. It is treason.


Funny that those founding fathers were pretty liberal for their time. Believing we should be allowed to discuss, invent, and consider new ways for government to handle problems that promote greater levels of freedom. Rather than the dogmatic and tyrannical mumbling from conservatives.

You never read the Affordable Care Act. If you did, you would know your not forced to purchase a healthcare insurance if its not already provided through another source. You will however, pay a penalty for not having a healthcare plan (the amount based upon the current year as explained in the law). Its just like the speed limit. There is no law stating you cant drive 120 mph down the road. However, there does exist a penalty if you are caught traveling 120 mph on a highway with a posted limit of 55 mph.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So, provide for the common defense by taking money away from those things the Government does that it is not Constitutionally allowed to do. Limit Government to those things it was originally supposed to do. Such as protect our borders.


By your 'definition' there exist not enough evidence to support using government money to defend the USA/Mexico border from a conservative stand point. Since the USA/Mexico border did not exist when the US Constitution was created; therefore, consideration to place such funds to that project would ALSO not have been considered by the founding fathers.




Zonie63 -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 5:44:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

So, somebody in Washington has to make up their fucking minds: Does the United States consider Mexico to be a friend or an enemy? If they're a friend, then let's treat them as friends and conduct our border and immigration policies accordingly and humanely. I think that's within the spirit of our stated "good neighbor" policy


Who thinks Mexico is a friend?


Those who supported NAFTA, for one. We buy a lot of their products, as they are a major trading partner. Millions of US citizens go down there for vacations every year. Some Americans apparently like Mexico, including many in the government and ruling class. Otherwise, NAFTA wouldn't have passed, and Mexico would be treated the same way as we treat North Korea or Cuba. Since that's clearly NOT the case, then the answer should be obvious to you.

quote:


Who thinks there even is a single "Mexico" that we can discuss in a singular manner? I would think the answer is obvious.


Your question insinuates a level of instability in that country, but if that's the case, why would we want to do business with such an unstable nation? Why would we even allow such wanton instability to exist so close to our own territory? We worry so much about a lack of freedom and instability on the other side of the planet, yet we let Mexico fall apart without lifting a finger? Seems like a strange policy to me.

So, as I said, someone in Washington needs to make up their fucking mind: Does the United States consider Mexico a friend or an enemy?




Musicmystery -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 5:52:31 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

So, somebody in Washington has to make up their fucking minds: Does the United States consider Mexico to be a friend or an enemy? If they're a friend, then let's treat them as friends and conduct our border and immigration policies accordingly and humanely. I think that's within the spirit of our stated "good neighbor" policy


Who thinks Mexico is a friend?


George W. Bush.

http://humanevents.com/2006/06/28/bush-administration-erases-us-borders-with-mexico-and-canada/

[image]http://www.hacer.org/latam/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/george-w-bush-felipe-calderon.jpg[/image]




SubtleMentor -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 5:57:13 AM)

This whole border issue is about riling up dumb uninformed people and getting them to vote Republican.

It is not connected to the reality that illegal immigration over the Mexican border has fallen drastically, nor is it connected to and cogent "philosophy". It is just tribalism.




ReblogMe -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 6:05:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SubtleMentor
This whole border issue is about riling up dumb uninformed people and getting them to vote Republican.

Who else would even dream of voting Republican these days? [;)] The current Republican base is less an issue driven chunk of the electorate with a political philosophy than a bunch of drooling, whining, special needs freaks who enjoy being the bitches of the Koch brothers and other people who wouldn't give them the steam off their piss, never mind rewarding them for their votes.




thishereboi -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 6:09:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ReblogMe


quote:

ORIGINAL: SubtleMentor
This whole border issue is about riling up dumb uninformed people and getting them to vote Republican.

Who else would even dream of voting Republican these days? [;)] The current Republican base is less an issue driven chunk of the electorate with a political philosophy than a bunch of drooling, whining, special needs freaks who enjoy being the bitches of the Koch brothers and other people who wouldn't give them the steam off their piss, never mind rewarding them for their votes.



And the current liberal base is a bunch of lazy, welfare collecting, lying, little children who can't wipe their own asses without the help of big brother so what's your point.



See I can be a partisan troll too. [8D]




SubtleMentor -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 6:12:40 AM)

I take that to mean you concede that the border discussion is just propaganda. We agree it's just politics, not a real world problem.




Sanity -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 6:35:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


George W. Bush.

http://humanevents.com/2006/06/28/bush-administration-erases-us-borders-with-mexico-and-canada/

[image]http://www.hacer.org/latam/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/george-w-bush-felipe-calderon.jpg[/image]



Obama-Lite?

Never heard of him.




mnottertail -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 6:51:27 AM)

There is a great number of things you haven't heard of, since if it didn't come out of some lunatic site, you wouldn't have knowledge of it.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 7:58:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I have a question about the understanding of the conservative philosophy as it relates to border security....
Often I hear many a conservative wish, desire, demand, and yes, even threaten the nation to be a "limited government". And while not one conservative has yet to fully explain what that would mean to myself. I'm confronted by another concept from the same philosophy: tighter border security.
I do not see how these two concepts, 'Tighter Border Security' and 'Limited Government' could operate together. Since 'Tighter Border Security' would mean more people being paid with government funds (local, state, and/or federal). And that those of 'Limited Government' want less people in government (i.e. less people being paid government money).
Could some of the conservatives on here, whom have been raging against the President for tighter border security, while at the same time, demanding limited government, explain how this apparent contradiction can possibly operate in a sane fashion?


Maybe you're just being obtuse. Well, maybe not.

"Limited" government means a government that has limited powers and authorities. The size of government will be dictated by those limited powers and authorities.

Tighter, isn't a specifically defined term, either. Tighter means "more tight than what it is currently." No one is calling for sealed (hermetically, or otherwise) borders. That's not possible. But, we sure as fuck can do a better job, can't we?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:01:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So, Conservatives are for making the government do what it is supposed to do and nothing else because doing anything else always takes the blessings of liberty away from some to do something else for another group. This is Obamacare. With Obamacare, one must pay a premium for health insurance if you are a citizen. You are forced. Forced is not a blessing of liberty, it is the opposite. It is treason.


I think the word you meant is "tyranny."




DesideriScuri -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:05:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Washington and Colorado are breaking federal law by legalizing pot. Should the justice department crack down? It's the law of the land . . .


Yes. And, there will be a constitutional fight. There will end up being some determination if it's under the authority of the Federal Government to make drugs illegal, or to define which drugs can be made illegal. And, it might even end up legalizing pot (and other drugs) across the Nation.

Boy, wouldn't that be a shitty outcome? [8|]

If the Feds don't want to enforce the law, repeal it, otherwise, it's not really a law, or we're not a nation of laws.




altoonamaster -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:15:27 AM)

i still say obama is getting paid by the insurance companies




mnottertail -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:18:55 AM)

Why is obama being paid for pot sales from insurance companies, are they fielding large pot operations with their profits?

Make mine Mutual of Omaha's GORILLA weed.

Marlin Perkins




altoonamaster -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:20:22 AM)

i was refering to his health care law/sorry




Mouth4Mistress -> RE: Conservative Philosophy on Border Security (7/10/2014 8:28:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubtleMentor
This whole border issue is about riling up dumb uninformed people and getting them to vote Republican.

It is not connected to the reality that illegal immigration over the Mexican border has fallen drastically, nor is it connected to and cogent "philosophy". It is just tribalism.


Oh, so it's OK if there are "only" a few million illegal immigrants, as opposed to tens of millions?

Hm, never knew that reducing the scope of the problem makes it go away completely.

Also, there's a bit of a difference between "tribalism" and "security".




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