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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 8:10:04 AM   
cloudboy


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Conservative Experiment Faces Revolt in Reliably Red Kansas

• “He’s leading Kansas down,” said Mr. Hastings, 68, who said he voted for Mr. Brownback four years ago, when he easily won his first term. “We’re going to be bankrupt in two or three years if we keep going his way.”

• Although every statewide elected official in Kansas is a Republican and President Obama lost the state by more than 20 points in the last election, Mr. Brownback’s proudly conservative policies have turned out to be so divisive and his tax cuts have generated such a drop in state revenue that they have caused even many Republicans to revolt.

• In some ways, it is unsurprising that many Kansas Republicans have turned on Mr. Brownback. This is a state that once had a tradition of centrist Republicans, like former Senator Bob Dole, and has had five Democratic governors over the past half-century.

• But much of this moderation went by the wayside as Mr. Brownback and conservative majorities in the Legislature turned the state into a laboratory for the policies they had run on. In addition to passing the largest income tax cuts in state history, they have made it easier to carry guns in public buildings, turned over management of Medicaid to private insurance companies, made it more difficult to get an abortion, and made it harder to qualify for public assistance.

• Most criticism of Mr. Brownback has centered on the tax cuts, which slashed individual income tax rates and eliminated taxes on nonwage earnings for nearly 200,000 small businesses. The most recent fiscal year ended with state revenues more than $300 million short of expectations.

• Based on decreased revenue from the tax cuts, the state’s nonpartisan legislative research department estimates that the budget will have to be adjusted by $1.3 billion, either through spending cuts or additional revenue, over the next five years in order to remain balanced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/us/conservative-experiment-faces-revolt-in-reliably-red-kansas.html?_r=0

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 8:21:25 AM   
cloudboy


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The state clearly has spending problem............

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 8:47:42 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

The War on Poverty Has Been a Colossal Flop

Today, the U.S. Census Bureau will release its annual report on poverty. This report is noteworthy because this year marks the 50th anniversary of President Lyndon Johnson’s launch of the War on Poverty. Liberals claim that the War on Poverty has failed because we didn’t spend enough money. Their answer is just to spend more. But the facts show otherwise...


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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 8:57:12 AM   
mnottertail


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Do you have even one fact that can be credibly cited to back up anything in that slobbering bunch of asswipe?


I didn't think so.



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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 10:25:26 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Because everyone knows that it's poor people who spread the wealth around

You do not like the poor do you?

And no one ever got a job from a wealthy person

The wealthy person hires the not wealthy person to do a job that he wont or cant do that pays $100 but he pays the not wealthy person $50....so no he did not give the not wealthy person a thing...But then you knew that..

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 11:36:25 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Conservative Experiment Faces Revolt in Reliably Red Kansas

• “He’s leading Kansas down,” said Mr. Hastings, 68, who said he voted for Mr. Brownback four years ago, when he easily won his first term. “We’re going to be bankrupt in two or three years if we keep going his way.”

• Although every statewide elected official in Kansas is a Republican and President Obama lost the state by more than 20 points in the last election, Mr. Brownback’s proudly conservative policies have turned out to be so divisive and his tax cuts have generated such a drop in state revenue that they have caused even many Republicans to revolt.

• In some ways, it is unsurprising that many Kansas Republicans have turned on Mr. Brownback. This is a state that once had a tradition of centrist Republicans, like former Senator Bob Dole, and has had five Democratic governors over the past half-century.

• But much of this moderation went by the wayside as Mr. Brownback and conservative majorities in the Legislature turned the state into a laboratory for the policies they had run on. In addition to passing the largest income tax cuts in state history, they have made it easier to carry guns in public buildings, turned over management of Medicaid to private insurance companies, made it more difficult to get an abortion, and made it harder to qualify for public assistance.

• Most criticism of Mr. Brownback has centered on the tax cuts, which slashed individual income tax rates and eliminated taxes on nonwage earnings for nearly 200,000 small businesses. The most recent fiscal year ended with state revenues more than $300 million short of expectations.

• Based on decreased revenue from the tax cuts, the state’s nonpartisan legislative research department estimates that the budget will have to be adjusted by $1.3 billion, either through spending cuts or additional revenue, over the next five years in order to remain balanced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/us/conservative-experiment-faces-revolt-in-reliably-red-kansas.html?_r=0

Further proof that the Laffer Curve is incorrect.

Unfortunately it has come at the cost of many small towns in Kansas which lost the state support they needed to keep their schools and other services open.  Now these towns, many over 100 years old, are dying as young families move away in order to keep their kids from having long bus rides.

Edit: It is also informative to compare Kansas to California where a liberal Democratic Governor and legislature raised taxes.
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/07/20/6564879/states-job-growth-defies-predictions.html

< Message edited by DomKen -- 9/16/2014 11:45:52 AM >

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 12:18:40 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Their answer is just to spend more. But the facts show otherwise...



The facts don't show otherwise.

The facts show that in a certain context speculating to accumulate can work, as can fiscal Conservatism.

Neither work in every context/situation.




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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 12:29:28 PM   
mnottertail


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I dont know that the Laffer Curve is incorrect, in fact I would say it is definitely correct, it is simple the min-max find the area under the curve from calculus.

The issue is that we have absolutely no concrete data from which to construct our curve.

simple demonstration:

for each of the following , describe the and maximum amount of tax revenue that can be obtained without affecting the behaviors of the earner:

0-10000
10001-20000
20001-30000
....
1000001-2000000
....
and so on.

Nutsuckers will point to nothing but assure you that if you take minimize tax money from wealthy people that the economy will boom and we will be in wash with revenues, even though this has been proven wrong several hundred times.

People who have credible citations and realistic history and data for these things will tell you that an extremely high tax rate on the wealthiest in our nation has been the times of great economies and great wealth.




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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 1:49:25 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I dont know that the Laffer Curve is incorrect, in fact I would say it is definitely correct, it is simple the min-max find the area under the curve from calculus.


The idea that there are two points on a bell curve that produce the same amount of revenue, if that bell curve is an accurate reflection of tax revenue versus tax rate is a reasonable idea. However in practice it has never been borne out. I think the issue is that the reality is that the peak of the curve is far higher than any Republican will ever admit (probably somewhere around a 70% top marginal rate)

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/16/2014 5:42:47 PM   
MrRodgers


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The problem isn't Laffer or bell curves as they are irrelevant. It is spending and by both sides and at every level. This country's original conservatism held that minimal govt. could be paid for with a reasonable (small) tax on business and NO income tax.

That conservatism held true for about 130 years until the bankers finally did take over. (1913) both political parties have been their whores ever since. They simply have their own constituency to sooth with their financial salve at taxpayers expense. (the first rates were the lowest of 1% and the highest 7%, the latter not kicking in until $500,000)

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/16/2014 5:44:25 PM >

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/17/2014 7:37:26 AM   
cloudboy


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Where did they expect the budget revenue to come from after slashing taxes? The principles of the Laffer curve more meat upon them if TAX rates are high to begin with. So, if the TAX rate is 70% and you cut it to 35%, private sector spending and activity will increase maybe spurring enough economic growth to recoup some of the lost tax revenue.

But in an already conservative state like KANSAS, cutting taxes will likely only result in lost revenue. Furthermore, there aren't many unnecessary services to to cut to offset that lost tax revenue.

To me the most telling sentence in the article was:

"Mr. Brownback and conservative majorities in the Legislature turned the state into a laboratory for the policies they had run on"

--The results speak for themselves. Now its back to reality and the real world.

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/17/2014 7:45:56 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The problem isn't Laffer or bell curves as they are irrelevant. It is spending and by both sides and at every level. This country's original conservatism held that minimal govt. could be paid for with a reasonable (small) tax on business and NO income tax.

That conservatism held true for about 130 years until the bankers finally did take over. (1913) both political parties have been their whores ever since. They simply have their own constituency to sooth with their financial salve at taxpayers expense. (the first rates were the lowest of 1% and the highest 7%, the latter not kicking in until $500,000)



Close, but no cigar. The original conservatism (actually wholesale Americanism) held that we could pay for everything by making the people who wanted access to our markets pay an ante in the form of duties and tariffs, and that in cases of war and so on, a tax might have to be appended to AMERICAN businesses, for their favor of having relatively untrammelled markets here.



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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/17/2014 6:18:20 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The problem isn't Laffer or bell curves as they are irrelevant. It is spending and by both sides and at every level. This country's original conservatism held that minimal govt. could be paid for with a reasonable (small) tax on business and NO income tax.

That conservatism held true for about 130 years until the bankers finally did take over. (1913) both political parties have been their whores ever since. They simply have their own constituency to sooth with their financial salve at taxpayers expense. (the first rates were the lowest of 1% and the highest 7%, the latter not kicking in until $500,000)



Close, but no cigar. The original conservatism (actually wholesale Americanism) held that we could pay for everything by making the people who wanted access to our markets pay an ante in the form of duties and tariffs, and that in cases of war and so on, a tax might have to be appended to AMERICAN businesses, for their favor of having relatively untrammelled markets here.



Well what you say may be true but Alexander Hamilton suggested a small gross receipts tax on 'luxuries' and tariff what I put forth as our original govt. conservative fiscal policy. What you was in addition to that but many of our founders including TJ favored tariffs because America was way behind other nations on both an agricultural and industrial basis and without tariffs, would never develop one and didn't want to be just industrial 'slaves' to England.

"Hamilton proposed to aid the nation's infant industries. Through high tariffs designed to protect American industry from foreign competition, government subsidies, and government-financed transportation improvements, he hoped to break Britain's manufacturing hold on America"

"Hamilton's plan for revenue was based upon an import tariff and an excise. To soften the blow of such a tax plan, Hamilton painted the items to be taxed as darkly as possible: "They are all of them, in reality--luxuries--the greatest part of them foreign luxuries . . . pernicious luxuries . . ." Spirits, which because of their "cheapness" are imbibed to an extreme, "which is truly to be regretted, as well in regard to the health and the morals, as to the economy of the community . . ."

Then of course was the Whiskey tax and rebellion. Still, the emphasis was in tariffs and excise...never an income tax.

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RE: This is a known failure. Why continue this idiocy? - 9/19/2014 8:39:04 PM   
Edvynn


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When the economy was based on rum and slaves, I'm sure that was a good way to go about the govt. revenue thing. Our British governors trying to foist all that tea upon us when us colonists had no time for that afternoon tradition because they kept screaming for more tobacco and cotton is what screwed everything up.

But who gets by on just tariffs these days? Is there any such country?

Is there anybody in the US that has a fucking clue what goes on in the rest of the world, or even here in the last 100 years? Outside of this torturous obsession with the godamned fucking Fed?






< Message edited by Edvynn -- 9/19/2014 9:31:04 PM >

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