RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 4:43:29 PM)

The myth of Hamas using Gazans as human shields debunked ....again

http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

More evidence of Israeli troops using Palestinian children as human shields:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620



Sanity -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 4:49:48 PM)

Standard operating procedure for Hamas:

Gaza: UN Discovers Hamas Rockets Hidden in School Next to Shelter for 3,000 Palestinians



Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:03:21 PM)

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/israel-channel-two-retracts-false-allegations-against-unrwa



DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:05:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The myth of Hamas using Gazans as human shields debunked ....again

Not debunked. Fool.

Let me make this clear to you. by the Geneva Conventions a military force must segregate itself from the civilian population. If it does not and it launches attacks it is itself culpable for everything that happens. That makes Hamas responsible for every death that has occurred.



Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:14:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Not debunked. Fool.

Let me make this clear to you. by the Geneva Conventions a military force must segregate itself from the civilian population. If it does not and it launches attacks it is itself culpable for everything that happens. That makes Hamas responsible for every death that has occurred.


Debunked........

quote:

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

(a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.



DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:24:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Not debunked. Fool.

Let me make this clear to you. by the Geneva Conventions a military force must segregate itself from the civilian population. If it does not and it launches attacks it is itself culpable for everything that happens. That makes Hamas responsible for every death that has occurred.


Debunked........

quote:

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

(a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.


Wrong again.
http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule97
Hamas hides amongst civilians therefore they are at fault. By the black letter of the Geneva Conventions.
quote:

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:24:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Let me make this clear to you. by the Geneva Conventions a military force must segregate itself from the civilian population. If it does not and it launches attacks it is itself culpable for everything that happens. That makes Hamas responsible for every death that has occurred.


Ken, come on. We all know that the first casualty of war is the truth. But, in this, credulity is being stretched beyond the limit to accept this line about Hamas's human shields. How could the IDF possibly come by this information on where Hamas cells are based and ready to fire their rockets? Does the IDF have huge numbers of agents all over Gaza? Do Israeli agents somehow regularly infiltrate Gazan families and friends and become apparently good friends with said families and friends? These are *very* tight knit communities. Nobody can expect to live quietly 'on the outside' and not get noticed. Lastly, if these agents know where Hamas's rocket-teams are based, why do they so frequently fail to warn their HQ in Israel *before* the rockets are fired?



DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:31:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Let me make this clear to you. by the Geneva Conventions a military force must segregate itself from the civilian population. If it does not and it launches attacks it is itself culpable for everything that happens. That makes Hamas responsible for every death that has occurred.


Ken, come on. We all know that the first casualty of war is the truth. But, in this, credulity is being stretched beyond the limit to accept this line about Hamas's human shields. How could the IDF possibly come by this information on where Hamas cells are based and ready to fire their rockets? Does the IDF have huge numbers of agents all over Gaza? Do Israeli agents somehow regularly infiltrate Gazan families and friends and become apparently good friends with said families and friends? These are *very* tight knit communities. Nobody can expect to live quietly 'on the outside' and not get noticed. Lastly, if these agents know where Hamas's rocket-teams are based, why do they so frequently fail to warn their HQ in Israel *before* the rockets are fired?

Hamas is required to wear uniforms and have bases separate from the civilian population. Other wise they are violating the Geneva Conventions and committing war crimes making them responsible for all civilian deaths that occur when Israel attacks to stop Hamas attacking Israel. This is exactly the same as the situation used to be with the IRA in Northern Ireland.



Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:52:39 PM)

Your link shows nothing Ken. You are also wrong about the IRA...... they were not viewed as an enemy force but a terrorist organisation, along with the UVF.



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 5:52:52 PM)

That doesn't relate to my post whatsoever, Ken.

I was asking about how you thought the intelligence on the whereabouts of these rockets, and their Hamas operatives, might work.



BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 6:20:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That doesn't relate to my post whatsoever, Ken.

I was asking about how you thought the intelligence on the whereabouts of these rockets, and their Hamas operatives, might work.

You get upset enough when the Israelis shoot back, how would you react if they did preemptive strikes.



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 6:37:36 PM)

You have military experience, Bama, what do you think about my thoughts about that intelligence?



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 6:47:26 PM)

FR

Jeez. My question can't be that difficult. I thought there were military types here who'd know about such things. No?



BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 6:55:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

You have military experience, Bama, what do you think about my thoughts about that intelligence?

I think that it would only be of two ways this is of real use one is if they used it to destroy the sites before they attacked. The idea that they could use them to move people from the target areas is invalid. It would be self defeating as the mere plan to attack would disrupt Israel more than the actual attacks (chess saying the threat is stronger than the execution), they would be able to inflict damage with no risk, and finally once they learned the evacuation routes they would hit them. Rope a dope doesn't work in a knife fight. If they destroyed the sites the firestorm would be far worse than it is when they retaliate. The sites would still be in the midst of civilians so there would still be the same collateral damage.
The second way is that when an attack comes they know where to strike back. This seems to be what they are doing.
One other use would be to use it to guide commando raids which would also be condemned as an act of aggression.



DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 8:19:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your link shows nothing Ken. You are also wrong about the IRA...... they were not viewed as an enemy force but a terrorist organisation, along with the UVF.

Yes it does. I quoted the pertinent section of the 4th Geneva Convention.
Again
quote:

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations

Hamas cannot fire rockets or do anything else from inside civilian areas and then complain about Israel attacking them.



BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/26/2014 8:21:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your link shows nothing Ken. You are also wrong about the IRA...... they were not viewed as an enemy force but a terrorist organisation, along with the UVF.

Yes it does. I quoted the pertinent section of the 4th Geneva Convention.
Again
quote:

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations

Hamas cannot fire rockets or do anything else from inside civilian areas and then complain about Israel attacking them.

And Hamas is also a terrorist group



tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/27/2014 2:29:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/israel-channel-two-retracts-false-allegations-against-unrwa

So another piece of Israeli propaganda debunked. Every time the pro-Israelis here make another of their extravagant self-promoting claims - be it about human shields or the Geneva Conventions or whatever - someone advances hard evidence to debunk the claim. Is there a single claim that has withstood critical scrutiny? I can't think of one.

Indeed, rather than merely debunking the claims, it appears that it is far more likely that the Israelis themselves are guilty of the allegations they make about Palestinians rather than vice versa. There is no doubt that the IDF has on occasion used Palestinian children as human shields - IDF soldiers have been convicted of doing so by Israeli courts.

Yet it appears that the myths, propaganda and lies advanced by Zionists are still taken seriously by some people. This may help explain why:

"[..] former MSNBC contributor Rula Jebreal's appearances have been cancelled for her stating the obvious—that Israeli voices overwhelmingly outnumber those of Palestinians, including at MSNBC[....]
[..]Jebreal isn’t the only TV journalist who’s been punished recently for questioning the party line on Israel and Gaza. After CNN correspondent Diana Magnay tweeted that a group of Israelis who cheered the shelling of Gaza and allegedly threatened her were “scum,” she was reassigned to Moscow (where she might be skating on other thin ice).
Even more hair-trigger was NBC’s reaction in pulling highly respected reporter Ayman Mohyeldin from Gaza. NBC didn’t explain its action, but shortly beforehand, Mohyeldin had delivered an emotional report about four Palestinian boys killed by Israeli airstrikes while playing soccer on the beach in Gaza. Just minutes before, Mohyeldin had been kicking the ball around with them. After a huge social media backlash, an apparently contrite NBC returned him to Gaza".
http://www.thenation.com/blog/180777/why-nice-network-msnbc-silencing-protest-over-pro-israeli-coverage

Americans are being seriously failed by their media, which fails consistently to present balanced accounts of events in the conflict, or to present Palestinian voices while giving their Zionist counterparts generous air time. Americans deserve far better from their media.



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/27/2014 2:48:11 AM)

quote:

And Hamas is also a terrorist group


... Though it causes a fraction of the terror that the IDF causes.



PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/27/2014 2:51:43 AM)

Bit off the subject, but you might find this interesting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

"... There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel".

Every one of the 112 pages in the booklet is marked "not for distribution or publication" and it is easy to see why ...."



tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/27/2014 5:23:28 AM)

More independent evidence debunking Israeli claims that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields

[image]local://upfiles/504455/3767FC0067BF4549829771444608FFB4.jpg[/image]

And more independent evidence debunking the Israeli claims:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html



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