RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault...

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subrosaDom -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 8:22:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Under any other circumstances I would have laughed/smiled at your witty response. Your attempt however on humor or sarcasm in this serious matter can’t hide your extreme and fundamentalist views that I witnessed from you in this OP. You don’t make a mockery from slaughter of innocents. Despite your smears, nobody except for Muslim terrorists enjoys "the slaughter of innocents". Again, Israel acts defensively. Hamas attacks civilian areas with primarily rocket fire, and Israel strikes the source of the barrage and invades to destroy the tunnels said rockets are smuggled through. That innocents are killed is entirely on Hamas and their backers. Seriously, you should stop getting your information from the likes of Fox News. There is no place the Palestinian civilians can be evacuated to that it isn’t being targeted by the IDF. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You don't need to read Fox News to grok that. Facts are stubborn things. Arbitrary assertions and screaming about IDF murderers on the other hand, well, that'll go over well at a rally in San Francisco where students carry anti-Semitic signs and threaten Jews with violence. Or anywhere where the population is 90% left. Say, Oxford.

dreamysubmale -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 8:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Two leftist posts in a row relying on ad hominems because thats simply the best so many leftists can do in a debate LOL...this must be a worldwide phenomenon; labeling someone a leftie by voicing an opinion or merely pointing to the truth.

subrosaDom -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 8:59:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Two leftist posts in a row relying on ad hominems because thats simply the best so many leftists can do in a debate LOL...this must be a worldwide phenomenon; labeling someone a leftie by voicing an opinion or merely pointing to the truth. The worldwide phenomenon is labeling someone as "stupid," "ignorant," "Nazi" (I've not found this last one on these forums, however), "dope," "moron," et al. when their viewpoint tilts toward individual rights and national defense and away from collectivism and moral relativism.

dreamysubmale -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 9:22:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Under any other circumstances I would have laughed/smiled at your witty response. Your attempt however on humor or sarcasm in this serious matter can’t hide your extreme and fundamentalist views that I witnessed from you in this OP. You don’t make a mockery from slaughter of innocents. Despite your smears, nobody except for Muslim terrorists enjoys "the slaughter of innocents". Again, Israel acts defensively. Hamas attacks civilian areas with primarily rocket fire, and Israel strikes the source of the barrage and invades to destroy the tunnels said rockets are smuggled through. That innocents are killed is entirely on Hamas and their backers. Seriously, you should stop getting your information from the likes of Fox News. There is no place the Palestinian civilians can be evacuated to that it isn’t being targeted by the IDF. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You don't need to read Fox News to grok that. Facts are stubborn things. Arbitrary assertions and screaming about IDF murderers on the other hand, well, that'll go over well at a rally in San Francisco where students carry anti-Semitic signs and threaten Jews with violence. Or anywhere where the population is 90% left. Say, Oxford. Both sides bear responsibility for the degree to which their tactics lead to civilian deaths. If one side abdicates that responsibility then this does not absolve the other. The killing of unarmed citizens and the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza by the IDF is not different to the outlook of terrorists. Knowingly taking a human life is synonyms with terrorism. I would love for the world to get rid of the military wing of Hamas and other armed militants in Gaza. But all this fighting is likely to result in no dramatic changes and has created so much pain and suffering

subrosaDom -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 9:27:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Under any other circumstances I would have laughed/smiled at your witty response. Your attempt however on humor or sarcasm in this serious matter can’t hide your extreme and fundamentalist views that I witnessed from you in this OP. You don’t make a mockery from slaughter of innocents. Despite your smears, nobody except for Muslim terrorists enjoys "the slaughter of innocents". Again, Israel acts defensively. Hamas attacks civilian areas with primarily rocket fire, and Israel strikes the source of the barrage and invades to destroy the tunnels said rockets are smuggled through. That innocents are killed is entirely on Hamas and their backers. Seriously, you should stop getting your information from the likes of Fox News. There is no place the Palestinian civilians can be evacuated to that it isn’t being targeted by the IDF. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You don't need to read Fox News to grok that. Facts are stubborn things. Arbitrary assertions and screaming about IDF murderers on the other hand, well, that'll go over well at a rally in San Francisco where students carry anti-Semitic signs and threaten Jews with violence. Or anywhere where the population is 90% left. Say, Oxford. Both sides bear responsibility for the degree to which their tactics lead to civilian deaths. If one side abdicates that responsibility then this does not absolve the other. The killing of unarmed citizens and the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza by the IDF is not different to the outlook of terrorists. Knowingly taking a human life is synonyms with terrorism. I would love for the world to get rid of the military wing of Hamas and other armed militants in Gaza. But all this fighting is likely to result in no dramatic changes and has created so much pain and suffering I think you are well-intentioned. But the taking of a human life isn't synonymous with terrorism. If I try to kill you and you kill me, you're not a terrorist. You're acting in self-defense. If my GANG tries to kill you and your friends, and I am with some other friends of mine during the commission of said act, you may without targeting my innocent friends, still injure or kill them. I'm still responsible because I attacked you. Not the other way around. This is no different.

BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 9:50:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Under any other circumstances I would have laughed/smiled at your witty response. Your attempt however on humor or sarcasm in this serious matter can’t hide your extreme and fundamentalist views that I witnessed from you in this OP. You don’t make a mockery from slaughter of innocents. Despite your smears, nobody except for Muslim terrorists enjoys "the slaughter of innocents". Again, Israel acts defensively. Hamas attacks civilian areas with primarily rocket fire, and Israel strikes the source of the barrage and invades to destroy the tunnels said rockets are smuggled through. That innocents are killed is entirely on Hamas and their backers. Seriously, you should stop getting your information from the likes of Fox News. There is no place the Palestinian civilians can be evacuated to that it isn’t being targeted by the IDF. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You don't need to read Fox News to grok that. Facts are stubborn things. Arbitrary assertions and screaming about IDF murderers on the other hand, well, that'll go over well at a rally in San Francisco where students carry anti-Semitic signs and threaten Jews with violence. Or anywhere where the population is 90% left. Say, Oxford. Both sides bear responsibility for the degree to which their tactics lead to civilian deaths. If one side abdicates that responsibility then this does not absolve the other. The killing of unarmed citizens and the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza by the IDF is not different to the outlook of terrorists. Knowingly taking a human life is synonyms with terrorism. I would love for the world to get rid of the military wing of Hamas and other armed militants in Gaza. But all this fighting is likely to result in no dramatic changes and has created so much pain and suffering I think you are well-intentioned. But the taking of a human life isn't synonymous with terrorism. If I try to kill you and you kill me, you're not a terrorist. You're acting in self-defense. If my GANG tries to kill you and your friends, and I am with some other friends of mine during the commission of said act, you may without targeting my innocent friends, still injure or kill them. I'm still responsible because I attacked you. Not the other way around. This is no different. The perfect analogy.

dreamysubmale -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 10:37:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Under any other circumstances I would have laughed/smiled at your witty response. Your attempt however on humor or sarcasm in this serious matter can’t hide your extreme and fundamentalist views that I witnessed from you in this OP. You don’t make a mockery from slaughter of innocents. Despite your smears, nobody except for Muslim terrorists enjoys "the slaughter of innocents". Again, Israel acts defensively. Hamas attacks civilian areas with primarily rocket fire, and Israel strikes the source of the barrage and invades to destroy the tunnels said rockets are smuggled through. That innocents are killed is entirely on Hamas and their backers. Seriously, you should stop getting your information from the likes of Fox News. There is no place the Palestinian civilians can be evacuated to that it isn’t being targeted by the IDF. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You don't need to read Fox News to grok that. Facts are stubborn things. Arbitrary assertions and screaming about IDF murderers on the other hand, well, that'll go over well at a rally in San Francisco where students carry anti-Semitic signs and threaten Jews with violence. Or anywhere where the population is 90% left. Say, Oxford. Both sides bear responsibility for the degree to which their tactics lead to civilian deaths. If one side abdicates that responsibility then this does not absolve the other. The killing of unarmed citizens and the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza by the IDF is not different to the outlook of terrorists. Knowingly taking a human life is synonyms with terrorism. I would love for the world to get rid of the military wing of Hamas and other armed militants in Gaza. But all this fighting is likely to result in no dramatic changes and has created so much pain and suffering I think you are well-intentioned. But the taking of a human life isn't synonymous with terrorism. If I try to kill you and you kill me, you're not a terrorist. You're acting in self-defense. If my GANG tries to kill you and your friends, and I am with some other friends of mine during the commission of said act, you may without targeting my innocent friends, still injure or kill them. I'm still responsible because I attacked you. Not the other way around. This is no different. I’m not going to argue points of criminal law in here. Every country has its own legal interpretations. And yes I will be charged with homicide or murder where I come from even If I happen to defend myself or my family in my own home from your gang of thugs. It’s called using reasonable force. Go figure. Look, isn't Israel supposed to be the enlightened democracy of the region? The mightiest super power in the region, and according to Rabbi Kirshner, the president of NY Rabbis “the most moral army in the history of civilization.”? The rockets carry only small warheads, about 20 pounds. To inflict any damage they have to have a direct hit and they cannot be aimed except in general direction. Israel on the other hand has an effective civil defense system to cope with rockets, which includes sophisticated warning systems (you can download an app even), has shelters and the Iron Dome. According to information handed out by the IDF, Hamas fired 3,356 rockets from Gaza over the 29 days. Of these only 116 landed in populated areas. What was the death toll numbers? According to the UN almost 1900 Palestinians which 75 percent classed as civilians and of whom over 300 children killed, while the Israeli toll is 67 including 3 civilians. Staggering numbers.

dreamysubmale -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/7/2014 11:03:36 PM)
[/quote] I think you are well-intentioned. But the taking of a human life isn't synonymous with terrorism. If I try to kill you and you kill me, you're not a terrorist. You're acting in self-defense. If my GANG tries to kill you and your friends, and I am with some other friends of mine during the commission of said act, you may without targeting my innocent friends, still injure or kill them. I'm still responsible because I attacked you. Not the other way around. This is no different. [/quote] The perfect analogy. [/quote] You do realize i was talking about a battle field, a war involving tanks, fighter planes, rockets an army and a band of militants, and not some senseless murder in the streets of Philadelphia, New York or Chicago right? So your analogy doesn't hold.

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 1:05:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." Which is exactly what Hamas are: murderers, since this is what they do, day in and day out. To their own, too, as 160 Palestinian children died digging the tunnels which were designed to enable Hamas terrorists to kill Israeli civilians, children in particular. You allegation here is disputable, and I note, unsupported by any citation. Leaving your dubious allegation to one side: Perhaps you will be kind enough to explain how deliberately targetting and bombing 6 different hospitals on at least 22 separate occasions are actions that are somehow morally superior to the actions outlined in your allegations. On what basis, moral or otherwise, should those who target and bomb hospitals, killing staff and patients alike, be regarded as different to murderers? Finally, I agree wholeheartedly that "Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war." The thugs and terrorists of the IDF have just killed about 1500 unarmed Palestinian civilians, some 3-400 of them children. Since 2000, the thugs and terrorists of the IDF have killed 1800+ Palestinian children. Do you regard these killings as murder too? Or are the thugs and terrorists of the IDF exempt from the moral standards you use to judge others?

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 1:36:25 AM)
Some have compared the situation in Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. Without getting into the rights and wrongs of that discussion, it might be pertinent to recall the stance of the last surviving leader of the resistance in the Ghetto, Marek Edelman: The UK paper, The Independent reports: "In the summer of 2002, Edelman, still going strong, intervened in Israel's show trial of the now jailed Palestinian resistance leader, Marwan Barghouti. He wrote a letter of solidarity to the Palestinian movement, and though he criticised the suicide bombers, its tone infuriated the Israeli government and its press. Edelman had always resented Israel's claim on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising as a symbol of Jewish liberation. Now he said this belonged to the Palestinians. He addressed his letter to the Palestinian ZOB, "commanders of the Palestinian military, paramilitary and partisan operations – to all the soldiers of the Palestinian fighting organisations". The old Jewish anti-Nazi Ghetto fighter had placed his immense moral authority at the disposable of the only side he deemed worthy of it." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/marek-edelman-last-surviving-leader-of-the-1943-warsaw-ghetto-uprising-against-the-nazis-1798644.html (emphasis added) The Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti is still in prison serving a life sentence following conviction in an Israeli court for terrorism charges. Barghouti's trial was widely condemned at the time as a 'show trial'. Many believe the real reason for his incarceration is that he is perhaps the only Palestinian leader who can replace Abbas and unify the various Palestinian factions. A report by Inter-Parliamentary Union, hardly a bunch of hotheaded radicals, denounced the entire affair stating that Barghouti's arrest and trial " "precluded any possibility of a fair trial"( Source: http://www.ipu.org/hr-e/174/report.htm ) I wonder if today's Zionists are aware of the irony of a Warsaw Ghetto leader openly supporting the Palestinians in their struggle for their right to their own homeland and human rights. It is one measure of how today's Zionism is a corrupt caricature of the ideals of Israel's founders.

Sanity -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 8:35:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale I’m not going to argue points of criminal law in here. Every country has its own legal interpretations. And yes I will be charged with homicide or murder where I come from even If I happen to defend myself or my family in my own home from your gang of thugs. It’s called using reasonable force. Go figure. Look, isn't Israel supposed to be the enlightened democracy of the region? The mightiest super power in the region, and according to Rabbi Kirshner, the president of NY Rabbis “the most moral army in the history of civilization.”? The rockets carry only small warheads, about 20 pounds. To inflict any damage they have to have a direct hit and they cannot be aimed except in general direction. Israel on the other hand has an effective civil defense system to cope with rockets, which includes sophisticated warning systems (you can download an app even), has shelters and the Iron Dome. According to information handed out by the IDF, Hamas fired 3,356 rockets from Gaza over the 29 days. Of these only 116 landed in populated areas. What was the death toll numbers? According to the UN almost 1900 Palestinians which 75 percent classed as civilians and of whom over 300 children killed, while the Israeli toll is 67 including 3 civilians. Staggering numbers. Why is Israel supposed to allow 3,356 rockets to be fired at it without reacting. How many more would there be without Israel striking back, and invading to destroy the tunnels. And why is Israel supposed to assume that at no time will Iran send a nuclear-tipped rocket over to add to the mix. Would anyone here just shrug if a neighbor were to shoot at their house thousands of times per month, as long as they only occasionally kill a member of the family? That kind of logic is unreasonable, and thats putting it kindly.

crazyml -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 8:45:50 AM)
I don't think anyone is seriously denying Israel's right to respond to rocket attacks. What's being questioned is their right to conduct terror operations against innocent civilians in Gaza. It's being questioned, because it is: 1) Fucking wrong 2) Illegal 3) Ultimately going to result in Israel's destruction.

Sanity -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 11:23:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I don't think anyone is seriously denying Israel's right to respond to rocket attacks. What's being questioned is their right to conduct terror operations against innocent civilians in Gaza. It's being questioned, because it is: 1) Fucking wrong 2) Illegal 3) Ultimately going to result in Israel's destruction. All your opinion, which is fine. However, there are no Israeli magic bullets as some here have suggested, war is always hell, Israel is REACTING to attacks, and Hamas has been using human shields not only for physical shields but also for political gain Which they've won you over, at least

NorthernGent -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 11:29:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Two leftist posts in a row relying on ad hominems because thats simply the best so many leftists can do in a debate LOL...this must be a worldwide phenomenon; labeling someone a leftie by voicing an opinion or merely pointing to the truth. The worldwide phenomenon is labeling someone as "stupid," "ignorant," "Nazi" (I've not found this last one on these forums, however), "dope," "moron," et al. when their viewpoint tilts toward individual rights and national defense and away from collectivism and moral relativism. Perhaps there's a middle ground. In the event you value individual rights, or more to the point sovereignty, then how on earth can you support the actions of the Israeli government. It is well documented that they're forcing people out of their homes. This is not to say that the Israelis are the sole aggressors because that is quite clearly not the case. In my opinion, these people need to kill one another until they run out of steam. Then, and only then, will they begin to value life more than they do at this remove.

NorthernGent -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 11:38:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale I would love for the world to get rid of the military wing of Hamas and other armed militants in Gaza. But all this fighting is likely to result in no dramatic changes and has created so much pain and suffering I think your post was reasonable all things considered. But, I think there's a point that is often missed. These people, as it stands, value politics more than life. They are going to have to go through the process of killing one another to get to the point where they begin to understand life is much easier when you sit with a beer in the sun. That is a long, drawn out process that took Western nations a long time to learn, and some still do not understand the basic sentiment that high ideals and political aims can only ever lead to chaos. These people aren't ready for it yet, because they haven't been through enough civil strife. The best thing the US can do is step out of it and let them pummel one another into submission and a point at which they think: "fuck it, we'll have a beer, that's yours and this is mine, and we'll accept that".

Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 11:51:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom Are you suggesting Hamas terrorists driving right by a school which Hamas knew the UN had informed the IDF about is proper? Note they didn't bomb the school. They bombed the terrorists. Hamas has no army, remember. It only has terrorists. How soon some forget that to not wear the uniform of your own country when you are a combatant is a violation of international law -- as it is to wear the uniform of your enemy. This is ALL Hamas does. I am suggesting nothing except the events that the UN said took place. You are assuming what hamas did or didnt know about the UNs calls with the IDF. Try and work out the flaw in your post.

Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 11:55:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Two leftist posts in a row relying on ad hominems because thats simply the best so many leftists can do in a debate LOL...this must be a worldwide phenomenon; labeling someone a leftie by voicing an opinion or merely pointing to the truth. Good spot......I am afraid to say it is par for the course though.

crazyml -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 1:08:21 PM)
Reacting to attacks? They really have you fooled, don't they. I appreciate that rightists have a pretty fucking poor grasp of maths, but let's go again.... Remind me ... how many civilian casualties on both sides?

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 1:40:43 PM)
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom The worldwide phenomenon is labeling someone as "stupid," An individual who is unable to learn. "ignorant," An individual who has yet to be educated in a given area. "Nazi" An individual who believes in aryan ethnic superiority "dope," Depends on where you are: rifle range=elevation & windage(specific information) the street=well dressed or presented the cop shop=contraband this forum=someone who disagrees with you "moron," et al. when their viewpoint tilts toward individual rights and national defense and away from collectivism and moral relativism. Which "individual rights" do you have that do not emminate from and are not protected by the "collective"? When in the history of the u.s. has national defense been an issue? When in the history of the u.s. have we been attacked? What is it about moral relativism that offends you?

NorthernGent -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/8/2014 1:50:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx When in the history of the u.s. has national defense been an issue? Thompson, my friend, you're an American; I'm an Englishman. My understanding of US politics is limited so when I say this it means it's one of the few US topics I can speak of with any sort of confidence. My understanding is that when the US was formed, national defence was uppermost in their minds. They looked at what was then called the United Province (Holland/Belgium) and felt they had the most freedoms in Europe, but they were also open to attack. So the US looked at striking that balance between defence and liberty. Defence was a hugely important consideration in the formation of the United States, and I suppose that reasonably without a reasonable defence against a foreign invader then you're open to having your liberty taken from you.7 I could be wrong here though, Thompson, and a pleasure to speak with you again. I still remember you correcting me on the Germans outside Moscow.

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