Sub-Space (Full Version)

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Gauge -> Sub-Space (7/20/2014 9:42:30 PM)

I am admitting my ignorance about sub-space and the fact that I simply want to understand it by interaction on the forums rather than read the likely hundreds of threads about it because I am certain that I will have questions.

My slut and I were discussing what it is that she experiences during our play time. From what I know about sub-space., what she described to me sounded like she was experiencing it. She told me that she sometimes goes somewhere else inside of her head, she also tells me that she often experiences a period of lost time. For example, the other evening we were playing and she had asked me if she fell asleep... (don't bust my balls about being a boring fucker although the temptation is there... I know) when she asked me I told her I was pretty certain she didn't because her body language didn't indicate she had and since she was kneeling, had she drifted off to sleep, from her position, she would have shown some sign. So, my questions are many:

1. What is sub-space and what is the experience like?

2. How is a dominant to know when the submissive is experiencing it and are there guidelines (suggestions) of what to do and what not to do?

3. How do you balance safety and letting your submissive drift into sub-space?

4. I am normally interactive with my slut when we are playing. Is it better to maintain that interaction (I mainly am doing it to monitor her safety) or to not interfere? If it is better not to interfere, what is the best way to monitor her safety without causing her to come out of it?

5. I am very attentive to her after we are finished, touching her and reassuring her, she told me that this makes her feel very safe and secure. Is there anything more that I need to do for aftercare?

OK, I will start with those questions. This is an area where my experience is lacking and I want to give her the very best I can give her because she deserves it. I want her to be able to enjoy every aspect of our play and if she is experiencing sub-space, I want her to truly be taken as far as she is able to go, and as far as I am able to take her.

Thank you in advance for your responses.








FieryOpal -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 2:50:29 AM)

By no means an expert on this subject, but I've heard it described as taking a vacation.
I'll add to that a non-talkative vacation of the altered state variety.
This is also when I believe the ability to say one's safe word might not be possible, or even to signal.

My former husband would get a bit whoozy afterwards, similar to being drunk or intoxicated (including stumbling--he never was one much for staying still very long).
My last sub stayed motionless for a spell until he felt more *normal* again. Our aftercare consisted of cuddling for a good while.
Wish I could tell you more. [sm=dunno.gif]



InHisHeart -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 5:15:07 AM)

The only thing I can compare the feeling to for me is similar to what I get when I've had general anesthesia but at the point I'm not fully knocked out yet or when I'm coming out of anesthesia. I can hear noises, voices, I can feel being touched but I'm not fully aware, kind of like being in a very deep daydream state of mind.

I lose all rational thinking and can't judge for myself what is safe for me physically or emotionally so I'm not going to use my safe word even if it got to the point I should. I can sometimes talk during but it's not rational talking and there have been a few times I've tried to push him to go way beyond what would be safe for me. With not being able to judge for myself, I have the trust in him that he knows how far he can go and still keep me safe.

He always keeps interaction with me going, talks to me and he'll bring me down from it if he feels it's necessary. For instance with the above, if I keep pushing him to go further than I should be taken he'll bring me down or if he senses I could be going into a flashback.

Afterwards, I'm physically and emotionally drained, sometimes my emotions will let loose and be all over the place. I need a lot of TLC, holding me tight, kisses on the forehead, stroking my hair, rubbing my back, if I'm too warm which I usually am, he'll get a cool damp cloth to cool my body down and a cold drink of water or Gatorade.



DesFIP -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 8:00:57 AM)

It's an altered state of consciousness. And yes, the comparison to being drunk is very apt.
For that reason, many of us can't count on the ability to safe word.

He knows I'm gone when he'll ask me something and ten minutes later I may answer, but not necessarily answering his question.

So you need to use her lack of interaction as telling you that all the responsibility for safe play is now on you.

We do bondage so he checks for temp and color. He's untied me in the past and my response was to indicate I didn't want him to stop. Ten minutes later when the pins and needles started, I understood why he had stopped. But I wasn't able to realize that my arm had gone numb.

Aftercare is up to the individual. I like cuddling, but I really need to be warm. Bring on all the heavy blankets! And if I'm shaking, I need him to make me a hot drink and even hold the cup if I can't without spilling. But that's only happened a couple of times. Usually blankets and a nap are my preferred thing.



InHisHeart -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 8:47:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Aftercare is up to the individual. I like cuddling, but I really need to be warm. Bring on all the heavy blankets! And if I'm shaking, I need him to make me a hot drink and even hold the cup if I can't without spilling. But that's only happened a couple of times. Usually blankets and a nap are my preferred thing.


Goes to show how everything is individual to each person and why communication is important. Unlike DesFIP, blankets and a hot drink would be an absolute no-no for me. I need a cold drink and no blankets, not even a bed sheet, nothing can be on me or I would start feeling smothered and closed in but I'm someone who can't stand sleeping with anything on me.



Gauge -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 11:42:30 AM)

quote:

FieryOpal

Wish I could tell you more.



No worries, every bit is going to help me learn more.[:)]

quote:

InHisHeart

I lose all rational thinking and can't judge for myself what is safe for me physically or emotionally so I'm not going to use my safe word even if it got to the point I should. I can sometimes talk during but it's not rational talking and there have been a few times I've tried to push him to go way beyond what would be safe for me. With not being able to judge for myself, I have the trust in him that he knows how far he can go and still keep me safe.


See, this is where I start to get a little scared, maybe scared is the wrong word, perhaps concerned is better. I am highly attentive to her physical state, but I cannot possibly know what goes on in her head. In the past I have pushed some limits with her because we agreed that, with some of them, it would be OK for me to do so. So if she tells me to push her more than normal I am smart enough to know that I will not violate her hard limits, but that grey area that exists and we agreed upon now becomes a great big giant field of question marks with the addition of sub-space. I guess if I simply default back to what I already know is fine I will be OK, but this also limits my ability to push her. Do I sound confused yet?

quote:

DesFIP

So you need to use her lack of interaction as telling you that all the responsibility for safe play is now on you.



As stated, I am very attentive to her and her safety, but this addition of sub-space has really kind of rattled me a bit and I am not certain why. I guess it could be because I am getting feedback and if I let her drift I won't have her input. Christ, this is making me feel like I never held a flogger before. There goes my image of this confident guy, eh? I will not stop being attentive to her of course, but if the feedback I may get from her is not reliable, what do I do then?







SweetAmber32 -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 2:27:55 PM)

I've gone some what into sub-space. And I agree it feels like being drunk. Almost out of body. I'd like to experience it again. As to tips; I've read where some Dom's periodically asked for their hands to be kissed. I thought that's a nifty idea to help determine how responsive she/he still is. My partner just asked how I'm doing. When I was slow to respond and slurred my speech, he knew it was totally up to him to watch my body language. He had me sip the water he gave me, we cuddled, and then I zonked out. That was the best night's sleep, ever!



kinksterparty -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 2:57:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InHisHeart
The only thing I can compare the feeling to for me is similar to what I get when I've had general anesthesia but at the point I'm not fully knocked out yet or when I'm coming out of anesthesia. I can hear noises, voices, I can feel being touched but I'm not fully aware, kind of like being in a very deep daydream state of mind.

I lose all rational thinking and can't judge for myself what is safe for me physically or emotionally so I'm not going to use my safe word even if it got to the point I should. I can sometimes talk during but it's not rational talking and there have been a few times I've tried to push him to go way beyond what would be safe for me. With not being able to judge for myself, I have the trust in him that he knows how far he can go and still keep me safe.


That's also my definition of "subspace" - not an altered state in terms of physical response, but the complete dissolution of limits and inhibitions. A state in which the submissive can - and will - do anything, because their personality (with its limits) has been completely replaced by the instinctual, millisecond-by-millisecond, perception of the experience.

The limit-dissolving subspace is a 2-edged sword: on one hand, this is the ideal state to push your sub's limits and experiences, within the previously-agreed-on hard limits. On the other hand, it's such a delicate state that while the sub may be OK with doing something while in subspace, if you move too far or too fast, once the sub comes out of the subspace, and remembers what was done, EVEN IF it seemed OK at the time, they might have a strong negative reaction to it (the "sub drop").

TANSTAAFL, and every action has an opposite reaction. Subspace is not a "free-play", there will be an emotional response later. It's a "bet multiplier" - you can go a lot further, but if the direction is wrong, the payback can be severe.



crwlon4 -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 3:29:59 PM)

My definition would be very similar to kinksterparty. Subspace to me is the place where the outside world is shut off, the control is gone and I feel like I am on an mental jet ride. It is very difficult for me to say no at this time and I am fortunate, I trust my domme completely.

I feel like a good D (after time of course) will intimately know the s and understand what is going on mentally and physically, to the best of their ability. The more you know, the better it will be.

My recommendation is when pushing limits to take it slow and safe, then the most important thing is communication. Talk about everything in depth. Talk about what ifs and learn about every fantasy in her brain, and how she feels about yours. The circle loop of exploration-communication-learning-exploration.

I am not even hinting that you don't do this already, I am just throwing my .02 in. This is a commendable and honest question you have posed.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 5:35:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

1. What is sub-space and what is the experience like?


For me, it feels like what Id imagine being high feels like. It's like Im living Pink Floyd's song "Comfortably Numb." I hear his voice, I feel physically what he is doing. But it's all through this floaty, dreamy veil. I'll be honest...I fucking LOVE LOVE LOVE the feeling.

quote:

2. How is a dominant to know when the submissive is experiencing it and are there guidelines (suggestions) of what to do and what not to do?


When I get my guy into sub space, he moans a lot and seems very far away. But I know he is in his zone at that point. Unless he is exhibiting distress, I let him ride the wave. If there is distress, I'll ask if he is okay (we don't use safe words by our personal choice). Otherwise I just let him go and eagle eye him the whole time.

quote:

3. How do you balance safety and letting your submissive drift into sub-space?


Safety and taking care of each other is always paramount for us...as safe as some of our more risky activities can get anyway. For me, Ive never encountered a situation where I felt he was unsafe. My trust in him is so much that this dude has my life in his hands...and he has proven that I've got absolutely nothing to worry about.

quote:

4. I am normally interactive with my slut when we are playing. Is it better to maintain that interaction (I mainly am doing it to monitor her safety) or to not interfere? If it is better not to interfere, what is the best way to monitor her safety without causing her to come out of it?


If this is what you both do in your dynamic, don't fix what isn't broken [:)]. He interacts with me while Im there and it hasn't ever broken my sub space.

quote:

5. I am very attentive to her after we are finished, touching her and reassuring her, she told me that this makes her feel very safe and secure. Is there anything more that I need to do for aftercare?


I say keep on doing what you do. If she is feeling safe and secure after, you are doing your job well. This is highly individual. My guy and I cuddle a lot afterwards. Either I'm in his arms or he is in mine, but we are big on touch as a way of conveying that everything is okay.



DesFIP -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 5:43:56 PM)

So you don't push in the moment. You talk a day later and ask how edgy was it. If she says then that you could have gone further, then next time you do. Is there any reason that you have to do it all at once?



Gauge -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 8:41:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

So you don't push in the moment. You talk a day later and ask how edgy was it. If she says then that you could have gone further, then next time you do. Is there any reason that you have to do it all at once?


If I conveyed the idea that I wanted to or had to push her all at once I am sorry, that is not what I had meant. I am trying to learn how to handle her with this new discovery and I want to understand as much as I can so we can talk about how to proceed.


I want to thank everyone that has taken their time to answer. I am still coming up with some more questions so I will add them when I get them together.



Arturas -> RE: Sub-Space (7/21/2014 8:51:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I am admitting my ignorance about sub-space and the fact that I simply want to understand it by interaction on the forums rather than read the likely hundreds of threads about it because I am certain that I will have questions.

My slut and I were discussing what it is that she experiences during our play time. From what I know about sub-space., what she described to me sounded like she was experiencing it. She told me that she sometimes goes somewhere else inside of her head, she also tells me that she often experiences a period of lost time. For example, the other evening we were playing and she had asked me if she fell asleep... (don't bust my balls about being a boring fucker although the temptation is there... I know) when she asked me I told her I was pretty certain she didn't because her body language didn't indicate she had and since she was kneeling, had she drifted off to sleep, from her position, she would have shown some sign. So, my questions are many:

1. What is sub-space and what is the experience like?

2. How is a dominant to know when the submissive is experiencing it and are there guidelines (suggestions) of what to do and what not to do?

3. How do you balance safety and letting your submissive drift into sub-space?

4. I am normally interactive with my slut when we are playing. Is it better to maintain that interaction (I mainly am doing it to monitor her safety) or to not interfere? If it is better not to interfere, what is the best way to monitor her safety without causing her to come out of it?

5. I am very attentive to her after we are finished, touching her and reassuring her, she told me that this makes her feel very safe and secure. Is there anything more that I need to do for aftercare?

OK, I will start with those questions. This is an area where my experience is lacking and I want to give her the very best I can give her because she deserves it. I want her to be able to enjoy every aspect of our play and if she is experiencing sub-space, I want her to truly be taken as far as she is able to go, and as far as I am able to take her.

Thank you in advance for your responses.




A girl will constantly communicate silently during a bondage scene. I like to focus on her hands for clues. Focus on her hands when she is bound as you are marking/whipping/penetrating her…watch her hands a split second after contact or penetration, watch her hands very closely. When you begin she will be twisting her hands and pulling her bindings; ignore that behavior, she is simply testing the binding and your skills and getting into the scene. She is ok even when she rhythmically squeezes tight both little hands on her binding in time with each strike or each penetration. You will be amazed at how much strength she can put in that effort so make the bindings sound!


But as things heat up, as she begins to tire and stress and overheat, she may be so in the scene and actually into a ‘trance’ of a sort that she will not use the safe word when she should. She is possibly close to this point when she stops the rhythmical squeezing of her bindings and instead is constantly squeezing the binding in each hand so hard her hands are shaking; she is figuratively “biting the bullet” with this effort to endure and she is deeply in the scene trance.

To be sure, this is not necessarily bad and indeed you need to get her there but you will need to watch her very closely and you may at that point slow the scene down for a few seconds to see if she will react by arching her back or pelvis for more or she will begin the softer rhythmic squeezing again and you can keep the pace steady and elect to speed it up then down again in some seemingly random cycle keeping from always escalating in a steady fashion but instead contrasting the pace and actions until the final push.




InHisHeart -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 6:05:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

So if she tells me to push her more than normal I am smart enough to know that I will not violate her hard limits, but that grey area that exists and we agreed upon now becomes a great big giant field of question marks with the addition of sub-space. I guess if I simply default back to what I already know is fine I will be OK, but this also limits my ability to push her.

I will not stop being attentive to her of course, but if the feedback I may get from her is not reliable, what do I do then?


I ran these questions by him last night, he said he pays attention to everything no matter how small or insignificant they might seem and there are 3 things he specifically pays attention to.

The first being what my overall mood was that day, was I in a great mood, happy-go-lucky, was I stressed out about something, was my anxiety high or any signs my ptsd is rearing it's ugly head and how tired I am because those things will have an effect on how far he can take me beyond what he knows I can handle for sure. With a good mood he can take me farther, if my anxiety has been high or my ptsd is flaring, the line is fine where something can push me over the edge in a not good way.

The second is my body language, my moans, how my body reacts to whatever he's doing. If my body starts going limp with not much reaction, I become silent, I close my eyes and keep them closed, that's a sign that I'm starting to disassociate and he'll bring me out of subspace.

The third, my eyes. He can tell so much about whats going on with me by my eyes at any time whether we're playing or grocery shopping. He'll tell me often during play to look at him, when he can see I'm looking at him but not seeing him, I have a blank stare look in my eyes, he knows I'm not in a good place.

These things don't happen very often to me and more often than not subspace is a very positive experience for both of us. We always talk about it the next day whether it's been good or took a wrong turn. He'll always ask if he pushed enough, not enough, what (if anything) would have made it better for me, what my feelings were about the activities that took place, how I was feeling about myself, how I was feeling about him, etc. At times I was pushed beyond my breaking point which has only happened twice in the 7 years we've been together, along with the aftercare, we've talked in depth about what happened, what it was that turned it from good to bad, was it the physical that became too much, was it something he said or his tone of voice, was it my mind playing tricks on me.

Basically his rule of thumb is, if he's in doubt or he's questioning my reaction, he doesn't add the extra push. He said there's always the next time for that.



DesFIP -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 10:12:04 AM)

If I'm twisting my hands it's because he's cinched the ropes too tight and I'm hoping to get it to loosen up just a tad as otherwise he's going to have to stop and redo the tie.

But Gauge, you already know how far you can go when she's giving feedback. So use that as a starting point. Then go a little farther and talk about it afterwards.

The other thing is what kind of feedback you normally get. Are you asking yes/no questions? Because she might be able to shake or nod her head even if she can't talk. If you asked her on a scale of 1 - 10 how tough things are when she is interacting, then you'll know what's a 7. And that you shouldn't jump it up much past that unless the purpose is to see where her limits are.

Hell, she might even be able to answer the 1 - 10 while spacing. Try it and see, see if her responses then are the same as when not fuzzing out. If so, then you will have more info.



kinksterparty -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 1:34:19 PM)

...



kinksterparty -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 1:41:50 PM)

[image]http://imgur.com/exccWfs[/image]

My visualization of the "Subspace Continuum".

Of course, "my $0.02", YMMV, etc.



kinksterparty -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 1:43:25 PM)

WTF, image not loading.

[image]http://imgur.com/exccWfs[/image]



mnottertail -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 1:46:00 PM)

go to the top right edit profile and down at the sig block is pgc code or something, click it....check it out carefully.

I tried that and the img worked better than the image, looks like you are missing something



mnottertail -> RE: Sub-Space (7/22/2014 1:48:06 PM)

[img]http://imgur.com/exccWfs[/img]


wow. maybe that has been disabled.



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