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*not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 2:51:23 PM

EStrict

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
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Someone said that to me today. I wonder,,, especially for the submissives or slaves who's dominants allow them to post. Does your having a view mean that *really* you just are a mouthpiece of your dominant's idea's? Or are you allowed views of your own? And if the second one, is expressing an idea that is NOT in agreement with your dominant are you topping from bottom?

My answer is no, it is not topping from bottom. Maybe I am lucky, but Master not only wants me to have my own thoughts but to make them known. He doesn't want to force me to believe everything he believes. He doesn't expect me to agree with everything he tells me to do (though he does expect me to do it even though I don't agree).

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

Post #: 1

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 2:55:40 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

I honestly don't understand how having one's own opinion -could- be topping from the bottom. Doesn't that generally mean trying to controll the sitution while remaining in a submissive position, or trying to manipulate the top?

I can't see that disagreeing with someone is necesaraly trying to control or influence them....

Hrm. Please, please explain how you see that it might be considered that way?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 2

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 3:02:27 PM

EStrict

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

::laughing:: sorry, I don't understand it either. I have sent the person a link to this though, so maybe he can explain it?

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 3

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 3:12:50 PM

LadyShoshin

Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict

Someone said that to me today. I wonder,,, especially for the submissives or slaves who's dominants allow them to post. Does your having a view mean that *really* you just are a mouthpiece of your dominant's idea's? Or are you allowed views of your own? And if the second one, is expressing an idea that is NOT in agreement with your dominant are you topping from bottom?

My answer is no, it is not topping from bottom. Maybe I am lucky, but Master not only wants me to have my own thoughts but to make them known. He doesn't want to force me to believe everything he believes. He doesn't expect me to agree with everything he tells me to do (though he does expect me to do it even though I don't agree).

I have seen this from both ends of the flogger so to speak. As a sub I was not a doormat, that meant that I didn't jump to obey just any man who decided to cap his name and call himself Master. It also meant that I had hard limits, knew my reasons for having them and on the limits I said were cast in concrete wouldn't budge, better to let someone incompatible look elsewhere than to compromise my own value system.

As a Domme, I don't want doormats and have turned quite a few down. I want my submissive to submit because he wants to, not because he is too weak to say no. I want to know his limits, I want him to be intelligent, wise and possess a good sense of humor. In other words - doormats are in aisle 5 at Home Depot, not in my life.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 4

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 3:25:47 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Sandy,
No way is that topping at all. Put that comment in the same context as the doms who contact submissives and demand they send them naked pictures, and then if they don't they reply with; "Well, you must be a wannabe and NOT a real submissive."

As others have posted, I demand beth have an opinion. I also expect her to challenge mine if it's on matters unrelated to our agreed lifestyle. But even there, when I presented her with her rules and contract, I wanted her to understand the meaning and reason for them much more then just the words on the document. As an example, her 3rd person speech that is being discussed in a separate message thread. If she didn't understand it's purpose and how it helped cement our relationship it was incumbent on me to explain that to her.

Ultimately I have the decision authority when it comes to us. But I use her knowledge, intelligence, and non-lifestyle related abilities constantly. Pressed, I'm sure there are many things and subjects that we have dramatically different opinions. (I didn't even force her to vote for my political candidate, she did that on her own.) And I have no problem with her having them and discussing them with others. The only thing that we are in 100% agreement is how we live.

I never saw the point and never had the desire for a slave who was an automaton. I don't believe many other Masters really desire them either. Because if they did, I think they would be selling a lot more of those anatomically correct 'love dolls'. They sit there without opinion, are always 'ready', and in some respects are much easier to maintain and acquire.

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 5

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 3:54:38 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I think the answer to the question is a question. Does the person know the dynamics of the intimate relationship between Dominant and submissive? If so, and the Dominant feels the submissive is topping from the bottom. Then yes, indeed they are topping from the bottom.

Make sense? What I percieve as something you may not percieve it the same way.
I run a BDSM group. I run it a certain way. I was given advice by two of the largest BDSM groups in the country when starting it. I'm following that advice. Doug has little to no job there at all.
Does that mean I top from the bottom? Because I am in control? Well it does to some. If you know the inner dynamics of the relationship you'd know he doesn't want to be involved. Why? Because he doesn't have the time. Nor does he have the passion for education the way I do. He knows, I am much more Dominant than most Dominants out there. He has 100% faith in me.
That doesn't mean some alledged Dom won't come to a munch or party of mine and whine and cry about me being too controlling. To me, when they must reduce themselves to that...I brand them submissive in my mind. Doesn't mean they cannot Dominate a weaker person though.

Anyway, I'm a bit off track. I do feel you need to be within a relationship to really know what is topping from the bottom.

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 6

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 5:46:36 PM

EStrict

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

I

quote:

I run it a certain way. I was given advice by two of the largest BDSM groups in the country when starting it. I'm following that advice. Doug has little to no job there at all.

Oh yeah,, another thought of the *leaders* of this group (and unfortunately it is a *real* group) is that a submissive can't run a BDSM group. They are not allowed their own thoughts, and the *dominant council* should only be dominants, not a submissive speaking for her dominant....

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 7

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 6:17:19 PM

cariad

Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline

sorry, don't mean to laugh but anyO/one who says that because a slave/sub says what's on their mind is topping from the bottom does not understand the mind of a sub/slave. being a slave is the best thing that has happened to this slave, and as much as she can be a bit fiesty at times she tries not to let her feelings get the better of her when she posts here.

Master has told this slave time and time again "cariad, I can not help you if you do not talk to Me and express your feelings, thoughts and views." in this slave's mind that means that Master expects her to speak up and express herself even if He doesn't agree with what she is saying at least He knows how she feels.

there are several posts that this slave has responded to and is sure someone out there thinks oh here we go a mouthpiece is on the loose.........it really doesn't bother this slave what others think of her, because as long as she is respectful, speaks her mind respectfully, and does not let her temper or personal feelings get the better of her she knows she is pleasing Master by speaking her thoughts, and feelings.

this slave not only is respectful to O/others, but she tries to treat T/them the same way she wishes to be treated. Master has told this slave that just because she feels awkward at times about talking about her feelings, thoughts and views on things does not mean she doesn't have a right to speak up.

some think that she is speaking on behalf of her Master, which couldn't be further from the truth. yes, this slave anticipates Masters wants, needs, desires and on occasion His thoughts, feelings and views but NEVER does she assume to write on His behalf because she does NOT think she has that right unless He has told her what to post and where. Master has NOT told her to post anything here on collarme.com, but this slave is sure if He were to come here and view some of her posts He'd smile seeing that she is trying to be respectful to O/others.

this slave DOES apologize if this post has offended anyO/one, as that is NOT what she wanted to do by posting today.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 8

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 7:08:29 PM

MistressDREAD

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I am much more Dominant than most Dominants out there.

This says it all sub4hire

You claim to be more Dominant then a Dominant hence what you do in a Authoritive position is in fact Topping from the bottom and you make no bones about it. JMO Course Ive always felt you were a Switch anyhow......... I could be mistaken, but I dont think so.....

(in reply to cariad)

Post #: 9

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 7:17:08 PM

MsPurrmeow

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict
Oh yeah,, another thought of the *leaders* of this group (and unfortunately it is a *real* group) is that a submissive can't run a BDSM group. They are not allowed their own thoughts, and the *dominant council* should only be dominants, not a submissive speaking for her dominant....

What a waste of truly valuable resources and the energy that a submissive can provide. The members of the group that believe things like this are truly damaging themselves. Unfortunately, if the group was built as an ego-stroker, then of course, this theory works in their favor, it just means that they have more work to do.

It's too bad that their self-esteems leave them so utterly terrified that they would cut themselves off from such willing and able members.

Happiness,
Purr

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 10

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 7:44:42 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Oh yeah,, another thought of the *leaders* of this group (and unfortunately it is a *real* group) is that a submissive can't run a BDSM group. They are not allowed their own thoughts, and the *dominant council* should only be dominants, not a submissive speaking for her dominant....

I know Sandy. I have many submissives within my group who cry out the same thing. They call themselves Dominants yet...as the years pass they still have no one to share their lives with.

Dread, Frankly you know I don't care what you think of me. You can call me your Dominant for all I care. I've known since your first attack on me so many month's ago you have issue with who I am. Second attack, hey that only cemented the feeling all the more. 3rd and 4th well they speak for themselves.
So thank you for feeling I am Dominant. That is the first compliment you have ever given me.
All that matters to me is my own Dominant loves me. Which he does.

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 11

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 7:47:09 PM

EStrict

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

I think you are mistaken Dread. I understand exactly what Gloria is talking about. Put me in a room full of women, I *will* end up in charge almost every time. I say almost, because sometimes I refuse. I am someone who knows how to use the resources I have to make things as efficient as possible. If Master has given me a task or even allowed me a project just for me, I will damn well put down my foot with those I deal with to get their asses in gear to make it happen. This is not topping from bottom, this is being the strong, intelligent female I am and not allowing others to step on me just because of their own role in their own lives. I have one dominant, and it is only he I am responsible to remembering my place with.

Don't get me wrong, getting my way doesn't mean I have to be a bitch, just that I will be firm, have a plan, and will fight tooth and nail to see that what I need done IS done.

In another matter, I am dominant on a daily basis to my children. They understand that they don't have to agree to do, as I *am* in charge, just as I understand the same in my relationship with Master. I certainly am not *topped* when I chose to allow my children responsibility for things, nor is Master topped when he allows things to me...

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

Post #: 12

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/23/2004 8:32:37 PM

realophelia

Posts: 168
Status: offline

quote:

Someone said that to me today. I wonder,,, especially for the submissives or slaves who's dominants allow them to post. Does your having a view mean that *really* you just are a mouthpiece of your dominant's idea's? Or are you allowed views of your own?

I am not only allowed to express my own views, but expected to do so. Master talks to me about all sorts of things -- politics, films, science, etc. He's not interested in lecturing me, either. He expects me to contribute to the the discussion. So I do my best. He never minds if I disagree with him and I feel free to do that even if he has a better grasp of the subject matter than I do :)

As far as being a mouthpiece here on the forums, no, I don't feel like I'm repeating Master's opinions at all. Master doesn't really have time to read forums at this point in time. So I'm not even sure what he would make of the posts I respond to. I will occasionally tell him about something I come across here. Aside from suggesting it is not a good idea to reply to certain emails, he hasn't been particularly concerned about anything.

Yours truly,
Ophelia

_____________________________

"And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burning coal Pouring off of every page Like it was written in my soul..."

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 13

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 5:12:17 AM

Chaos

Posts: 30
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline

I would suggest that any "Dom" that doesn't allow his sub to express an occasional opinion go out and trade her for one of those plastic blow up dolls. They are cheaper to maintain, and they won't talk back.

(in reply to realophelia)

Post #: 14

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 5:31:19 AM

INSIDEYOURMIND

Posts: 483
Status: offline

quote:

I would suggest that any "Dom" that doesn't allow his sub to express an occasional opinion go out and trade her for one of those plastic blow up dolls. They are cheaper to maintain, and they won't talk back.

Chaos,

Well said, the only issue with the doll is they don't bend well, and that could be a sign that the doll is attempting to top from the bottom!

My sub is vocal in her opinions, and I want it that way. She is always respectful, when we converse, but I want to know what she thinks.

I believe topping from the bottom is more manipulation in the sense that a sub will use her submission to get her way.

_____________________________

If I got smart with you.................
How would you know?

(in reply to Chaos)

Post #: 15

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 10:44:54 AM

proudsub

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

I always express my own opinions. Hubby doesn't even read these forums, but i do think He would agree with most of what i say.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 16

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 2:07:09 PM

mtsilence

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline

Blessedly, my Lord not only allows me my own thoughts and views, my Lord encourages them. Granted I am not allowed to argue with my Lord, but my Lord sure as heck wants me to keep my Lord up to date on happenings and keep my Lord from verbally misstepping in public situations that my Lord might otherwise not know about. (I refer to BDSM gatherings and whom is attached to whom and whom is not longer attached you know the social rounds) I am also required to make sure that my Lord has current information so that my Lord’s training classes for newbies is always up to date (my Lord being one of the founders of Gateway here in Colorado, teaches the BDSM 101 class, and attempts to cover all the issues that might come up during the class.) I enjoy doing the research, and more it gives me ideas about things to discuss with my Lord. I can honestly say that the very idea of control my Lord is something I had never thought about nor would I want to be the controlling party in our relationship. My opinions and ideas, while mine are part of the gift I give my Lord

(in reply to Chaos)

Post #: 17

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 2:42:31 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I think you are mistaken Dread. I understand exactly what Gloria is talking about. Put me in a room full of women, I *will* end up in charge almost every time. I say almost, because sometimes I refuse. I am someone who knows how to use the resources I have to make things as efficient as possible. If Master has given me a task or even allowed me a project just for me, I will damn well put down my foot with those I deal with to get their asses in gear to make it happen. This is not topping from bottom, this is being the strong, intelligent female I am and not allowing others to step on me just because of their own role in their own lives. I have one dominant, and it is only he I am responsible to remembering my place with

Thank you Sandy for understanding the dynamics of a power exchange relationship. For some it is hard to imagine a Dominant can actually take control and order the sub to control certain aspects of their lives.

In my mind it is actually using your submissive or slave to the fullest capacity. Why would'nt one want exactly that?

(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 18

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 6:37:32 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Thank you Sandy for understanding the dynamics of a power exchange relationship. For some it is hard to imagine a Dominant can actually take control and order the sub to control certain aspects of their lives.

In my mind it is actually using your submissive or slave to the fullest capacity. Why would'nt one want exactly that?

For me, this is the -hardest- part of power exchange. It's easy to do what someone else tells you to do. It's easy to be responsible/good/adult/whatever when you have been -told- to do so, or been -told- to behave in a certain way.

It's -hard- to do similar things when you're told to take care of them yourself. To me, being told "Behave in a way that would please me and reflect well on me" is -much- harder than being told "Do not say this, this and this. Do not speak in this way. Respond to dominant people this way..."

Off the boards and offline, I think the same thing is true. It is easier (though not -easy- nor even always possible) to abstain from self harm when I am dirrectly ordered not to. However, my partner has told me that he wants me to take care of myself, mentally and phsycially, but that in order to be a strong, mentally healthy person, he will not/can not order me to do these things. Rather, he wants me to learn how to do them for myself, thereby being a better, stronger person. It's hard.

Moving away from that--
What are people's opinions on submissive/slave partners who are ordered by their dominant partner to be in controll of a situation? For example, a dominant partner who obliges her partner to run an online community? Is -that- an example of a submissive person "not being submissive"?

How about dominant partners who are masochists? Is it being unsubmissive for a masochist's property to hurt her? Does that automatically place the submissive person in a dominant position?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 19

RE: *not a doormat* = topping from bottom - 11/24/2004 10:08:16 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

What are people's opinions on submissive/slave partners who are ordered by their dominant partner to be in controll of a situation? For example, a dominant partner who obliges her partner to run an online community? Is -that- an example of a submissive person "not being submissive"?

What do you consider me to be? No wrong answer there. I'm a sub to my Dom. I'm a mentor to many. I'm a group leader. Some call me Dominant. Usually those are the ones who want to play with me. Or the ones who have done something against someone whose hands I have to figuratively slap.
Bottom line, I keep the people safe who attend any function I put on. If that makes me less submissive then so be it.
As I've stated. I only have one person to please. I think I'm doing an ok job on that front.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 20

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