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ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/12/2014 11:27:24 PM

dreamysubmale

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The Islamic State group in Iraq is a "threat to the civilized world" US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel said on Monday. Hagel said the Islamic State group was a threat to US interests, Europe and Australia. (Aug. 11).

Which bears the question, why hasn't the US of A and its allies done something about it sooner? There where ample opportunities to almost annihilate the advancing throngs of Islamist militants from the air, without fear of killing civilians or damaging infrastructure. Instead we let them advance unhindered, taking town after town, pillaging the wealth, arming themselves with abandoned American hardware and weaponry… beheading and mass executing its enemies and raping young women in their wake.

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

_____________________________

Everywhere man blames nature and fate, yet his fate is mostly but the echo of his character and passions, his mistakes and weaknesses... Democritus

Post #: 1

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/12/2014 11:56:18 PM

ThirdWheelWanted

Posts: 391
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

The Islamic State group in Iraq is a "threat to the civilized world" US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel said on Monday. Hagel said the Islamic State group was a threat to US interests, Europe and Australia. (Aug. 11).

Which bears the question, why hasn't the US of A and its allies done something about it sooner? There where ample opportunities to almost annihilate the advancing throngs of Islamist militants from the air, without fear of killing civilians or damaging infrastructure. Instead we let them advance unhindered, taking town after town, pillaging the wealth, arming themselves with abandoned American hardware and weaponry… beheading and mass executing its enemies and raping young women in their wake.

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

Oh fuck you very much! If the US acts, we're aggressive and sticking our noses where they don't belong. Or only doing it for oil. Or whatever other BS slogan you can come up with. If we don't act, then we get to hear this crap. If we'd attacked ISIL earlier, we'd get a never ending stream of abuse about drone warfare, and air attacks causing collateral damage. And what right did we have intervening anyway! Etc.

How about New Zealand handle this one?

< Message edited by ThirdWheelWanted -- 8/12/2014 11:57:11 PM >

(in reply to dreamysubmale)

Post #: 2

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 1:30:26 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

How about New Zealand handle this one?

Well, if you just want to get silly, why not France?

Seriously, though, in this case, we bear some responsibility as it was the US that helped ISIS/ISIL in Syria. We have to own that.

Do I think we should get involved, now? Fuck no. I'm tired of the world bitching about us but, running to us, hat-in-hand when they don't want to fund their own military and just sponge off of us.

Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to ThirdWheelWanted)

Post #: 3

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 2:40:43 AM

Politesub53

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The US havent helped ISIL in Syria. They did help the Free Syrian Army, who are way more moderate.

As for getting involved, I am unsure anyone wants to but letting ISIS grow will surely drag the US and UK into things later down the line. I dont see air strikes being fully effective with this kind of threat, troops on the ground are needed but no one wants that. The problem is both Sunni and Shia have these extreme lunatic terrorists waiting in the wings. If we leave a void, aas happened when Saddam was taken out, it will surely get filled.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 4

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 10:15:12 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

The Islamic State group in Iraq is a "threat to the civilized world" US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel said on Monday. Hagel said the Islamic State group was a threat to US interests, Europe and Australia. (Aug. 11).

Which bears the question, why hasn't the US of A and its allies done something about it sooner? There where ample opportunities to almost annihilate the advancing throngs of Islamist militants from the air, without fear of killing civilians or damaging infrastructure. Instead we let them advance unhindered, taking town after town, pillaging the wealth, arming themselves with abandoned American hardware and weaponry… beheading and mass executing its enemies and raping young women in their wake.

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

We've been doing quite a bit in the region for quite some time. I think our politicians sometimes spread it on a bit thick with their rhetoric, saying things like "Axis of Evil" and "Threat to the Civilized World." It sometimes might seem hard to swallow, since our actions don't really seem to rise to the magnitude of such "doomsday" rhetoric.

(in reply to dreamysubmale)

Post #: 5

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 10:58:52 AM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

The Islamic State group in Iraq is a "threat to the civilized world" US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel said on Monday. Hagel said the Islamic State group was a threat to US interests, Europe and Australia. (Aug. 11).

This hagel guy what is his motivation? How much stock in haliburton or olin matheson does he own? Does he have any of his kids in the military?

Which bears the question, why hasn't the US of A and its allies done something about it sooner?

How about because it is none of our business.
Smedly butler once opined that the oil companies have enough money that they can hire their own security forces and the american taxpayer should not have to subsidize their efforts.

There where ample opportunities to almost annihilate the advancing throngs of Islamist militants from the air, without fear of killing civilians or damaging infrastructure.

But you are all in favor of murdering people you do not know. The constitution is pretty specific about the protocol for going to war.

Instead we let them advance unhindered, taking town after town, pillaging the wealth, arming themselves with abandoned American hardware and weaponry…

Since we gave it to the iraquies it is no longer american hardware and weaponry.

beheading and mass executing its enemies and raping young women in their wake.

Somehow this is different than when the u.s. does it. Napalm or a chopped head, dead is dead. Oh yes we need to call rape....have you any real data to support this claim? Is rape an uncommon occurance in combat? Why is it particularly heinous when done by non whites?

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

Perhaps you could point to a time in history where it was otherwise?

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

My thoughts are that you are a phoquing war monger who feels the constitution of my country is nothing more than shit paper. Tell us please where in the constitution does it charge the government with protectig the assets of private u.s. enterprise in foriegn countries?

(in reply to dreamysubmale)

Post #: 6

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 11:01:14 AM

mnottertail

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I would have to ask myself if our Secretary of Defense said they were not a threat, how we would be able to continue funding the Military-Industrial complex.

A real conundrum, his motivation.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 7

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 11:01:14 AM

MrRodgers

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Well I have a slightly different take on this since these groups seem to pop up everywhere we want them to. Want them to you ask ?

Yes, you see the whole western world is to forever now...live in fear. Fear is the greatest tool to whip up the people and soon we'll have that $trillion pentagon.

This is how you destroy current govt. to replace it with the govt. of 'your' choice to protect you, the people. This accomplishes two missions in one. You remove legal protection of the people from govt. for the people's security and it maintains THE profit center, the all time profit center.

All we are seeing now is the creation of different characters to play their roles and the chaos precipitated by western intervention. The west won't truly engage (after starting to hot $$ wars) until their resources are truly fucked with like oil because we just as soon watch them kill each other on CNN.

Then we continue to rationalize and construct vast security operants that is well on its way, then and only when resources are threaten...more boots on the ground.

This is all the neocons quagmire made in heaven...get used to it. You'll see more of this with different names and they will ALL...be threats to the 'civilized' world.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 8

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 1:33:12 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would have to ask myself if our Secretary of Defense said they were not a threat, how we would be able to continue funding the Military-Industrial complex.

A real conundrum, his motivation.

I have heard that you have some background in things military. How much time and money do you figgure it would take to field an army of say three infantry divisions and one of artillary?
These isis boys, I have been told ,are a bunch of rag tag wannabes who just showed up to whoop some suni ass. How is it that untrained ragtag punks can so easily defeat a u.s. trained and equipped modern army?

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 9

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 1:44:53 PM

mnottertail

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Well, since we are not currently involved anywhere else, (afghanistan being more rag tags) and we have 1.2 mill under arms (of course that is a quarter mill in officers, so flush that number, and you are asking for ground troops and artillery, so that loses the ruptured ducks and the squids and we are down to the suck and the dogfaces. hmmmmmm, get rid of the cooks and cabdrivers there, and we got about 20 private e nothings to really throw at it, but to answer your question?

If you are going small minimal divisions, 40K in troops there, and in the normal before our gabillion dollar toys that wont work in a real world war, you are talking 120K troops, but I guess I could field the 40K in 4 weeks (with a lot of assumptions). More like 3 months nowadays, and plenty big buchu bucks.

We got guys with electronics and hand receipts, and they have guys fighting for their country and way of life and nationalism and actual ideals (whether good or bad is not salient here) so that is how that is done.

Plus you and me ain't fighting no more, so they don't stand a chance.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/13/2014 1:45:56 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 10

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 1:58:43 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If you are going small minimal divisions, 40K in troops there, and in the normal before our gabillion dollar toys that wont work in a real world war, you are talking 120K troops, but I guess I could field the 40K in 4 weeks (with a lot of assumptions). More like 3 months nowadays, and plenty big buchu bucks.

I have read the autobiographies of a few commanders. Montgomery,eisenhower,guderian,zhuchove to name a few. All of them figure that it takes a minimum of two years to make an adequate (not expert) warrior.
This isis possie seems to have come from nowhere...just an organic outgrowth of the "terrorist"??? That don't float with those infected with the logic virus.
They were trained someplace. They are supplied from someplace. To not know the address of that someplace does not make any sense. Armies composed of several divisions do not materalize out of thin air. Armies composed of several divisions are not supplied out of thin air.

We got guys with electronics and hand receipts, and they have guys fighting for their country and way of life and nationalism and actual ideals (whether good or bad is not salient here) so that is how that is done.

I would be the first to agree that the motivated warrior has a definite advantage.

Plus you and me ain't fighting no more, so they don't stand a chance

Lucky us.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 11

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 2:03:37 PM

mnottertail

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Well, it seems to me that we know that these guys have been training in the middle east, funded and supplied by Saudi Arabia, Osama bin Laden and some others, but kept out of Jordan by King Hussein and Iraq (beforetimes) by Saddam Hussein.

But all that was allie allie in free with our liberation, wasn't it?

And we sure as fuck didn't treat King Hussein well, he was a better friend than Israel ever will be, even in some peoples current hallucinations here.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 12

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 2:48:39 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, it seems to me that we know that these guys have been training in the middle east, funded and supplied by Saudi Arabia, Osama bin Laden and some others, but kept out of Jordan by King Hussein and Iraq (beforetimes) by Saddam Hussein.

But dems our buds???
so it might make sense we had the inside line on when they were going to change the mpc.

But all that was allie allie in free with our liberation, wasn't it?

Funny how that works.

And we sure as fuck didn't treat King Hussein well, he was a better friend than Israel ever will be, even in some peoples current hallucinations here.

He may be a king but is he really white?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/13/2014 2:49:14 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 13

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 4:21:35 PM

DaNewAgeViking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How is it that untrained ragtag punks can so easily defeat a u.s. trained and equipped modern army?

Ask the Viet Cong about that one.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 14

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/13/2014 4:53:42 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How is it that untrained ragtag punks can so easily defeat a u.s. trained and equipped modern army?

Ask the Viet Cong about that one.

Viet cong is a construct of madison avenue. Their name was the viet minh but that sounded to dignified so we had madison avenue construct a suitably hateable name for the enemy.
The viet minh which sprang from the nva, were on the same order as our navy seals or green berets.
Their military structure dates from before ww2 when viet nam was all one country before the u.s. decided to break it in half. They fought the japs quite effectively and when the japs surrendered they surrendered to the vietnamese and not to the french or the brits. It was the brits who rearmed the japs and sicked them against the vietnamese after the war was over.
If you think the nva or the viet minh/viet cong were "rag tag" you would be mistaken.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/13/2014 5:06:04 PM >

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)

Post #: 15

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/14/2014 1:31:50 AM

dreamysubmale

Posts: 204
Joined: 4/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

The Islamic State group in Iraq is a "threat to the civilized world" US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel said on Monday. Hagel said the Islamic State group was a threat to US interests, Europe and Australia. (Aug. 11).

Which bears the question, why hasn't the US of A and its allies done something about it sooner? There where ample opportunities to almost annihilate the advancing throngs of Islamist militants from the air, without fear of killing civilians or damaging infrastructure. Instead we let them advance unhindered, taking town after town, pillaging the wealth, arming themselves with abandoned American hardware and weaponry… beheading and mass executing its enemies and raping young women in their wake.

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

Oh fuck you very much! If the US acts, we're aggressive and sticking our noses where they don't belong. Or only doing it for oil. Or whatever other BS slogan you can come up with. If we don't act, then we get to hear this crap. If we'd attacked ISIL earlier, we'd get a never ending stream of abuse about drone warfare, and air attacks causing collateral damage. And what right did we have intervening anyway! Etc.

How about New Zealand handle this one?

Oh, love you too Mr. Angus! New Zealand doesn't have an air combat force. Our RNZAF consists of 50 aircraft, focusing on maritime patrol and transport. NZ has fought in both World Wars, contributed more forces in World War II than any other nation, fought in Malaysia, Vietnam, the Gulf War and Afghanistan, plus various UN peacekeeping missions.

_____________________________

Everywhere man blames nature and fate, yet his fate is mostly but the echo of his character and passions, his mistakes and weaknesses... Democritus

(in reply to ThirdWheelWanted)

Post #: 16

RE: ISIL 'Threat to Civilized World' - 8/14/2014 3:46:07 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

Can you see a pattern of inertia emerging from the West and the US in particular? Incompetence maybe?.

This is my first OP (i think) and reflects my opinion and how i see the crisis developing. What are your thoughts and insights?

We all know the cause of the crisis. This crisis is a direct consequence of the Bush-Blair-Howard axis of evil's invasion of Iraq. The invasion threw the entire region into turmoil. It exacerbated tensions between Shia and Sunni communities. It destroyed institutions and infrastructure in Iraq. It set off a civil war c2003-6, and current hostilities are a resumption of that civil war after a break to let the US leave.

Having scrambled the omelet can it be unscrambled? No. It seems to me that the best hope the West can hope for is to avoid the worst possible outcome - IS or ISIL running an autonomous terrorist Northern Syria and Northern Iraq. Iraq seems to be falling apart and Syria is just a disaster zone. In the longer term, it seems that the order that has held in the region since the days of Sykes-Picot is crumbling and the region is reorganising itself along ethnic and sectarian fault lines.

At the moment it appears that the best hope of avoiding the worst possible outcome is a vague hope that Iraq's Sunni population will eventually turn against ISIL. But, if that is going to happen, it won't happen until after the Sunnis have either secured their independence from Baghdad, or less likely, a political arrangement that satisfies Sunni demands and interests will be agreed upon in Baghdad.

A depressing sage of incompetence, ignorance, lies, aggression, arrogance, imperial delusion, and errors of a stratospheric magnitude? Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. When will we in the West ever learn to stop invading other people's countries and mind our own business?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/14/2014 3:55:47 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to dreamysubmale)

Post #: 17

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