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ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor

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ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

Does it work that way for everyone? I honestly cannot say with any certainty. Everyone is very individual. If it isn't you, it isn't you. And nothing wrong with that. I used to think like this myself.

I think a lot of people try to brow beat other's into the fact that they know them, they exploit insecurities to force their own viewpoints, its why I generally keep very quiet about the reading people thing, its got a bad rap!

But, yes it does work, some people can read people, they don't need to be your soulmate, they don't need to be your best friend (the better they are the further away (emotionally / intimitely) they can pick things up about you.

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ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor

All life on earth stems from the same basic genetic material, you share 90-something percent of your DNA with a Banana, and 98-99% of it with a monkey. The genetic difference from one human to another is thousandths of a percent.*

The point being, we're not all the unique beautiful snowflake we believe we are. Or at least, we're only unique to a few decimal places. If you disassemble one human being, and disassemble another, you'll find that by and large, everything is very very much the same.

The same is true of what goes on in our heads, we might all come across differently, we have different desires and needs when you cast your eye over the surface of what people think of themselves. But when you start to poke around underneath those things, it starts getting a lot of the same connections.

If you put time into understanding those connections, if you get a feel for what sort of effects guilt can have, what loneliness can do, you can start to form a map of those connections, you can start to get a feel for what connects to what.

Of course we all have those feelings, we all have the ability to understand the connections of the people in our lives, the close friends that we have spent time getting to know. The trick is being able to understand the mechanisms at play in a general enough way to apply them to everyone.

It is easy to imagine applying that knowledge in quite a coarse way, the new submissive who comes to this place with nothing but a curiosity, they start talking to a dom(me) and the conversation uncovers the facets of the submissive, the conversation being guided by the submissive's reactions to the conversation.

My personal approach has always been very largely based on linguistics and semantics, I think the words we use give away a huge amount of information that we don't intend to give. When we are talking about things that we understand and know about ourselves we can speak confidently and openly. When the conversation turns to more difficult topics, our words change, the way we deliver them alters very very slightly. (Either verbally or written) If you can apply the topics that the words and delivery (and other things) change around, then you can start to understand what it is about them that their mind is throwing mental roadblocks at. Once you have a vague idea of where the roadblock is, you can direct the conversation to the places around it to confirm what you suspect. At that point you've very likely learnt something about that person that they had absolutely no knowledge of before that moment.

Once you have uncovered one snippet about someone, you will generally start finding others that are connected to it. It's like they're buried under soft sand, and tied together with rope, once you've found the end, it just takes effort to find more.

So to answer the OP's question, yes there are huge swathes of our personalities that we aren't aware of, that we hide from ourselves, or just fail to realise. I got into the job I have because I was good at digging up those things (I don't think anything I studied helped that part at all)

Put it this way, I've never met anyone that I've not been able to spend time digging around with that I've not been able to tell them more about themselves than they didn't already know.

*I did know these numbers once, I've since forgotten, and mostly made it up! But they're vaguely close, and its for illustration purposes only. i.e. You get what I mean.

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ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity


Just because some can...or think they can...does not mean everyone has that ability. Nor does it mean that the person reader is correct in what they think they are reading. So no, it does not work for everyone. Nor could I say with any certainty that it works for EVERYONE. Which is what I said in the first place.

And I was not referring to people reading either, by the way. I was speaking of MY own discovery with my guy in reference to what the OP was about, rather than making a sweeping generalization about reading people.

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I don't think this is limited to D/s. I'm with Kaliko- this happens with my friends all the time or any relationships.

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50


I'm sorry.... I just can't believe that at all. There may be things that you can find out about me that very few (if any) other people may see, but I still don't think that if I don't already know about it, you're going to magically discover it either. You may be able to "read" me.... But it's not going to be something I don't already know about myself.

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Suffice it to say that I have experienced this very phenomenon on several occasions. I don't believe it's any special power that I have (the ability to "read" people). I think it's a basic human flaw to which almost all of us fall prey.

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ORIGINAL: CountDrackula

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I don't think this is limited to D/s. I'm with Kaliko- this happens with my friends all the time or any relationships.

is a fake user
tuts

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ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50


I'm sorry.... I just can't believe that at all. There may be things that you can find out about me that very few (if any) other people may see, but I still don't think that if I don't already know about it, you're going to magically discover it either. You may be able to "read" me.... But it's not going to be something I don't already know about myself.

As my profile footer says, these are my opinions, this is what I think, i have my own frame of reference from which to believe what I say to be true (or reasons for it to be a lie, if it were to be so)

Just as you have your frame of reference, you know what you know about you, if you have made all the discoveries there are to be made about you, I think that sounds like an exceptionally calming place to be, you certainly have my envy.

Ultimately, there's no need to be sorry, we all have our own beliefs, I've no problem with mine not being believed. :)

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

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ORIGINAL: CountDrackula

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I don't think this is limited to D/s. I'm with Kaliko- this happens with my friends all the time or any relationships.

is a fake user
tuts

*double take*

HUH??

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Wait. do I need to show you my tits on cam to prove I'm real, is this where its going?

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

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I think I know myself pretty damned well. And if there are things I don't know about myself....then he's not going to know about them either.

^^^That is a closed-minded adult version of the 2-year old who covers their eyes with their hands and says, "You can't see me."

Why can't we know ourselves completely?

1. An extreme need for control, meaning... it comes from fear-based places. The need creates a rigidity in perspective because in the same way a drug addict's choices all lead to the attainment and use of drugs, so does the "control freak" make every decision based on how much control they will have. It's an inflexible and limited view. This covers un-healed abused kids and rebels without a cause, among others.

2. Denial - The need to see things in a certain way, despite evidence to the contrary. More about this at the end.

3. Ignorance - none of us "knows everything." We learn from what we are exposed to. We can't be exposed to everything firsthand, so we must rely on others to expand our view.

4. Willful ignorance - Being so in love with our own point of view, that we reject the possibility that others may know more. This is especially true if the new information runs counter to what we want to believe.

5. Stupidity - For these purposes, I'll relate this quote, "Intelligence is the ability to not only learn from our own mistakes, but to also learn from the mistakes of others. Stupid people are limited to their own view(s).

About denial - Decades ago, when I worked for an abuse agency, there was a new mother who feared that she would be like her own Mom, and not know it. The woman was a survivor of incest and could only fault her Mom with a failure to protect. Her Mom was blind to it and didn't know. Kind of important, yes? So, the woman asked, "How do I know if I'm in denial?" She asked this with the intensity of a Mama Bear who was committed to protecting her kids from herself, from her own weakness, faults or limitations, in this regard. Honorable, really, to have such emotional courage and fortitude, I think.

The answer... you don't know when you are in denial. You need others to tell you that. If one person says it, and you trust their judgment, then look into it. If two people tell you, look into it even more. If a few, or more, people tell you... believe them and know that you aren't able to see it yet, but you will, if you truly want to.

So, those are a few reasons why your assertion that you know you better than others know you, is a self-limiting belief.

No, we are humans. That means we need each other. Well, broken humans don't - narcissists, psychopaths and liars... they only need themselves... the rest of us exist as things to be used by them, but their ability to connect on any deep or intimate level, is nonexistent.

Now, psycho-babble aside, who knows best how the back of your body looks? You or the student sitting in the desk behind you for an entire semester?

You can claim to know yourself. But, it's just plain old true that your ability to see yourself is LIMITED, and limited in specific ways which are NOT LIMITED, to others.

We don't get to control what others see, although some do try. To become more open towards others requires us to accept some level of vulnerability. I would posit that anyone in D/s is vulnerable, so it goes both ways. But, I think the questions in the OP are human questions and not limited to BDSM.

I feel comfortable saying that those who are open to the (at least occasional) superior views of others will know themselves better than those who are closed.

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

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ORIGINAL: CountDrackula

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I don't think this is limited to D/s. I'm with Kaliko- this happens with my friends all the time or any relationships.

is a fake user
tuts

*double take*

HUH??

Also "Huh"?

Wait. do I need to show you my tits on cam to prove I'm real, is this where its going?

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

And I have to ask.....What could a dominant know about a submissive that the submissive doesn't already know about him/herself?

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ORIGINAL: BecomingV

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

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I think I know myself pretty damned well. And if there are things I don't know about myself....then he's not going to know about them either.

^^^That is a closed-minded adult version of the 2-year old who covers their eyes with their hands and says, "You can't see me."

Why can't we know ourselves completely?

1. An extreme need for control, meaning... it comes from fear-based places. The need creates a rigidity in perspective because in the same way a drug addict's choices all lead to the attainment and use of drugs, so does the "control freak" make every decision based on how much control they will have. It's an inflexible and limited view. This covers un-healed abused kids and rebels without a cause, among others.

I seriously wouldn't consider myself a "control freak", but I will admit that this is one reason I don't think someone can know something about me that I don't already know....because I have control over what I want them to know. But that's not really my question. My issue isn't with letting someone know me. My question about this is the idea of someone knowing something about myself that I don't already know. My assertion is that this is information that moves in ONE DIRECTION. It's like a natural progression of nature. Before a tree becomes a tree, it starts out as a seed and then a sapling. It doesn't go from sapling back down to seed. By the same token, I know something about myself and then I show it to others (If I so choose). Someone thinking they know something about me that I don't know is comparable to going backwards and in this case it doesn't happen.

2. Denial - The need to see things in a certain way, despite evidence to the contrary. More about this at the end.

Like I said....I would have to see specific examples to know what you're talking about. I mean...I've never denied that I am fat and bitchy.....so someone telling me that isn't going to be "news".

3. Ignorance - none of us "knows everything." We learn from what we are exposed to. We can't be exposed to everything firsthand, so we must rely on others to expand our view.

I have NEVER claimed to "know everything". I know I don't know everything. And I know that I may not know everything about myself as evidence by how my views on D/s and M/s have changed over the years. What I have continued to assert is that if there are things I don't know about myself, nobody else is going to know it either...and certainly not until I learn about it first.

4. Willful ignorance - Being so in love with our own point of view, that we reject the possibility that others may know more. This is especially true if the new information runs counter to what we want to believe.

Not willful ignorance.....just questioning the logic of it. Someone may be able to figure out something about me without my actually telling them because they observe what I do. I eat seafood when I go out to eat. So someone may be able to deduce "Oh...you must like seafood" But I'm not going to respond with "OMG...you're right! I would have never guessed!". My response woud be "yes I do...I have enjoyed it since I was a child". They're not telling me something about myself that I don't already know.

5. Stupidity - For these purposes, I'll relate this quote, "Intelligence is the ability to not only learn from our own mistakes, but to also learn from the mistakes of others. Stupid people are limited to their own view(s).

Oh....I won't deny being stupid at times Maybe even most of the time. But what does this have to do with the topic? Like I said....someone else telling me that isn't gong to be "news" to me.

About denial - Decades ago, when I worked for an abuse agency, there was a new mother who feared that she would be like her own Mom, and not know it. The woman was a survivor of incest and could only fault her Mom with a failure to protect. Her Mom was blind to it and didn't know. Kind of important, yes? So, the woman asked, "How do I know if I'm in denial?" She asked this with the intensity of a Mama Bear who was committed to protecting her kids from herself, from her own weakness, faults or limitations, in this regard. Honorable, really, to have such emotional courage and fortitude, I think.

The answer... you don't know when you are in denial. You need others to tell you that. If one person says it, and you trust their judgment, then look into it. If two people tell you, look into it even more. If a few, or more, people tell you... believe them and know that you aren't able to see it yet, but you will, if you truly want to.

I suppose it's because nobody has ever told me anything of this nature. I mean...nobody has ever told me that I am a drunk or drug addict or in denial about an abusive relationship. Of course it helps that I've never touched drugs, hardly ever drink and I've never been abused by a man....and nobody I know has ever suspected it. I've never denied that I am overweight and enjoy food more than exercise....so there's isn't anything "new" or shocking that anyone is going to tell me there.

Nobody needed to tell me that I was submissive....I've actually known that since I was about 7, although I didn't know what it really was and didn't put a label to it until I was about 10. But it wasn't something someone else saw in me that I was blind to until they told me.

So, those are a few reasons why your assertion that you know you better than others know you, is a self-limiting belief.

No, we are humans. That means we need each other. Well, broken humans don't - narcissists, psychopaths and liars... they only need themselves... the rest of us exist as things to be used by them, but their ability to connect on any deep or intimate level, is nonexistent.

Now, psycho-babble aside, who knows best how the back of your body looks? You or the student sitting in the desk behind you for an entire semester?

You can claim to know yourself. But, it's just plain old true that your ability to see yourself is LIMITED, and limited in specific ways which are NOT LIMITED, to others.

We don't get to control what others see, although some do try. To become more open towards others requires us to accept some level of vulnerability. I would posit that anyone in D/s is vulnerable, so it goes both ways. But, I think the questions in the OP are human questions and not limited to BDSM.

I feel comfortable saying that those who are open to the (at least occasional) superior views of others will know themselves better than those who are closed.

Like I said...I'm just trying to figure out "what" someone else could know about me that I don't know about myself already. If they know something about me, I may be surprised to find out that they figured it out without my telling them....but whatever they tell me they have seen isn't going to surprise me as something I didn't know already. If I don't know something about myself, then it hasn't come to surface yet for anyone else to know either.
And that student who sits behind me all semester? He never sees my back because I always have it covered by a shirt. And yes...I CAN know that shirt better than he can because I look at it in my closet every day. He knows nothing about the mole on my shoulder blade....

ETA....I just thought of ONE thing that may fit into this category. I have epilepsy and since no one has filmed it, I have never seen myself having a seizure. I have an old boyfriend who saw a half dozen of them. But do I have to actually SEE myself having a seizure in order for me to KNOW that I convulse violently and bite my tongue to the point of bleeding and swelling? No.... just because this is something I'm never going to see doesn't mean I'm not aware of it.