Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam?


legitimate Medical Treatment
  70% (34)
Quackery
  20% (10)
Scam
  4% (2)
Not Sure/Other
  4% (2)


Total Votes : 48
(last vote on : 9/25/2014 3:24:01 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

Marc2b -> Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 7:16:52 AM)

Reading over some posts in another thread got me thinking about this topic.

I have never been keen on . . . Chiropracy? Chiropractism? Well, what ever word means the practice of chiropractic medicine. I have heard - somewhere, sometime - that the medical establishment isn't keen on the idea. I've only been to one once, at the urging of my mother and sister who both swear by the practice, when I was having problems with a leg becoming sore and numb.

I was bent and twisted in various ways while having to listen to a sales pitch on something called a "colon purge" for only $499.99. I said I'd think about it and get back to him and I limped out of his office feeling worse than when I went in. This, I was told, was normal but in a few days I'd feel better than ever. I didn't. Oh I recovered from the bending and twisting but the leg problem remained. An interview by my normal doctor revealed the culprit to be my old (my really old) comfy chair - it was pinching a nerve in my leg. The solution was a new comfy chair. Leg problem gone. Needless to say, I decided against the colon purge (why would I want to purge myself of my colon anyway? It's useful).

My wariness of Chiropractors increased recently when my mother began experiencing severe knee pain. She was unable to put any weight on it without excruciating pain. Walking was near impossible. Despite by own concerns, she insisted on going to the chiropractor. When she came out she said she was feeling better. She didn't even make it to the parking lot before it came back worse than before.

This time I convinced her to see her regular doctor. The solution turned out to be a cortisone shot. She's told me that she is now rethinking her devotion to the Chiropractor. As for me, I am convinced that Chiropracy (whatever) is, at best, quackery and in many cases an outright scam. I am interested in hearing other people's opinions on it.



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 7:37:38 AM)

Absolutely legitimate. The medical establishment isn't keen on treatment that doesn't make them oodles of money, and a very skilled chiropractor knows that the better he/she is, the more driven they are to ease and eliminate the clients ailment, the more damage it does to their livelihood. Western philosophy chiropractic medicine is a money mill, offering relief to clients, but not arresting the issue or eliminating the issue. Eastern philosophy isn't so much a money mill. The target of this post, I'm pretty confident, is more Eastern rather than western. So I'll get directly to your point:

Which is it CD, heal or profit?



Gauge -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 7:47:50 AM)

My slut was nearly killed by a chiropractor. She could tell it better to be sure, but this clown "adjusted" something in her neck and spine. Whatever he did to her began a chain reaction and basically caused the veins in her spine around her neck to unwind... there is a medical term for it, but I am too sleep deprived to remember what it was. I'll ask her and post it later.

Anyway, she was seen by a regular doctor because the pain was increasing substantially and when he examined her, she was emergency air lifted to a Philadelphia hospital for emergency surgery.

I have a herniated disk in my lower back and one in my neck... a few friends told me to go to a chiropractor. Being the dyed in the wool skeptic that I am, I talked with my neurosurgeon about it. He basically told me that my disks were not bad enough to be operated on, but if I wanted to go see a chiropractor he would be more than happy to do the surgery afterward.

The final tale that kind of sealed the deal for me... not that it needed much help, was my father who suffers from peripheral neuropathy. He was told by a friend to go see a chiropractor, so my Dad went. The guy did an evaluation and told my Dad that he could cure his neuropathy with regular sessions which is bullshit.

I have no trust or faith in these medical snake oil salesmen that can claim to do wonders for you and cure all sorts of ailments because your spine is out of alignment. I'll save my money, thanks.



shiftyw -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 7:55:22 AM)

I love my chiropractor.
I think SOME suck. Mine is really awesome.
Just like SOME doctors suck.




SeekingTrinity -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 8:13:00 AM)

~FRing it~

I've been to a chiropractor a handful of times in my life for upper back, shoulder, and neck issues. I've had good experiences these times as far as relieving the pain after some adjustments. They didn't try up selling me on anything, try to convince me they could cure a bunch of other problems, etc. I had an acute issue and they did some adjustments that honestly helped me feel better...and we called it a day. This was just my experience, but I totally believe that there are snake oil salesmen in the field.



MariaB -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 8:52:04 AM)

I agree with shifty, some are good and others are pretty hopeless.

I was recommended to go to a chiropractor for this nagging neck and upper back pain. Thinking back, he didn't ask me any of the pertinent questions which should of led him to possible heart problems. He felt around and told me I had a cervical disc herniation in my neck. He gave me a treatment and sent me home with a load of exercises and told me to make an appointment with him for the following week. It was my heart. I was a walk in medical emergency but he obviously didn't think so. Turns out I had, had at least 2 silent heart attacks and I was going into heart failure. X-rays and a CT showed I had nothing wrong with my neck, it was just referred pain from my heart.



eulero83 -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 10:34:24 AM)

I choosed not sure/other, because of the reasons shiftyw and MariaB pointed out. It has a fundation but being alternative means it's not regulated and because of that you ca find yourself in front of incompetent people, that when talking about the C1 vertebra is scary. I was helped a lot by a chiropract when my stiff neck some years ago, but I considered it quite scary experience, too.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 11:11:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Absolutely legitimate. The medical establishment isn't keen on treatment that doesn't make them oodles of money, and a very skilled chiropractor knows that the better he/she is, the more driven they are to ease and eliminate the clients ailment, the more damage it does to their livelihood. Western philosophy chiropractic medicine is a money mill, offering relief to clients, but not arresting the issue or eliminating the issue. Eastern philosophy isn't so much a money mill. The target of this post, I'm pretty confident, is more Eastern rather than western. So I'll get directly to your point:

Which is it CD, heal or profit?
Like every other health care enterprise, it's a mixture of both.

I wouldn't have done it for 31 years if it didn't earn me a living. But, is it making me wealthy? Nope. Do I need to be wealthy? Nope...I just want to fix people as best as I can and when I know I can't, I send them elsewhere.

I have a working relationship with the hospital and with several
M. D.s. Why. Because I know my limitations and the M. D.s know theirs. I know what I can fix, what I can help with but not fix, and what I can't fix. Am I going to heal diabetic neuropathy? No, because I can't heal diabetes. Neither can medicine. Can I manage diabetic neuropathy in conjunction with the patients medical doctor? Sure can...and I do. Can medicine do a whole lot for back pain, neck pain, headaches other than pills or surgery? No, not really. I can. Can I cure fibromyalgia? Well, considering that it affects mainly women who, when they first started showing up in their medical doctors' offices with it, were given a handful of pills and patted on the head and were told "there, there", I can do a better job with it than the ongoing pill cycle or pain management programs but whether or not an individual ends up "cured" permanently? I've had a few...and a few that did not. Can I cure high blood pressure with an adjustment of the thoracic spine alone? Not likely. But can I help some whose high blood pressure is a result of their lifestyle...foods they eat, their alcohol intake, their exercise level, their work, etc...not hereditary factors or other medical issues. Yes, through a full approach and not just adjustment. Do I believe in the adjustment and the effect it can have on the nervous system and the musculoskeletal health of the body? Yes. Do I believe that it is a cure-all? No...not any more than I believe that insulin is a cure for diabetes (it's management) or that a nerve block is a cure for neuropathy or that antibiotics are a cure for viral infection (they're symptom management). As I stated earlier, there are things I can fix, things I can manage, things that are better left to other hands. The same holds true for medicine...there are things they can fix, things they can manage, things better left to other hands. One of the biggest differences I see is that most, though certainly not all, D.C.s practice my way...whereas a great majority of medical practitioners think THEY are the end-all and be-all. This arrogance...just as it is with certain D.C.s extends to the belief that medicine can fix anything, such that they ignore or deny that any other alternative might be of some good.

Some examples of chiropractic...overreach... were presented. How about some medical overreach? John R Toth surrendered his medical license in 2005 and was sentenced to jail for manslaughter. His overreach? Injections of hydrogen peroxide and the use of bismacine to treat Lyme's disease. Another unproven method of treating Lyme's disease is long-term use of I.V. antibiotics, yet there are M.D.s under investigation for doing just that. Then there the M.D.s who did not feel like following the C.D.C.s guidelines for treating the disease, so they published their own. Then, there is always the doctor to Elvis, Dr. Nick. But let's be fair...it wasn't just Dr Nick who was abusing his license, it was almost every M.D. who had contact with Elvis. More recently, Michael Jackson's M.D. Dr. David Chao, M. D. to the Chargers and with a private practice...investigated by the DEA, reprimanded by the Ca. Medical Board for negligence...whose treatment of a 15 year old left her disfigured.

Does this mean I don't believe in medical doctors and what the practice of medicine can do? No. I know there are good medical doctors...one of them is my own. But he believes in what I can do too, as well as accupuncturists, psychologists (rather than psychiatrists), etc....much as I do.

I live in a small town. When I entered into practice with my father in 1983 (he'd been in practice here since 1964), there wer 8000 or so people living here. In my 31 years in practice, it's grown to 12000...bigger but not huge. If I was a quack...or didn't help anyone...would I still be making a living? Would I have never been sued? ( knock on wood ). I don't think so. There are two D.C.s in my town. Myself and another practitioner. There are two in another town, 10 miles down the road. The newest one of us is over-the-top...free X-rays, adjusting in a room visible to others, etc. Does this make me cringe? Yes. Have I, as an ethical practitioner, complained to the board? Yes. Have the two D.C.s down the road? Yes. He may well be a good doctor BUT his practice-building techniques suck and degrade us who just want to continue building our practice by being the best doctors...in our field...we can be.

Sorry this took so long...but I was helping people.[;)]



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 11:19:38 AM)

CD, I was doomed to Canadian crutches for the rest of my life, but a conspiracy between my M.D. And my chiropractor allowed me to retire them.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 11:25:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

I choosed not sure/other, because of the reasons shiftyw and MariaB pointed out. It has a fundation but being alternative means it's not regulated and because of that you ca find yourself in front of incompetent people, that when talking about the C1 vertebra is scary. I was helped a lot by a chiropract when my stiff neck some years ago, but I considered it quite scary experience, too.
Not regulated? We're under the regulation of a Chiropractic Board and the State Department of Regulatory Agencies. Same as any other doctor.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 11:58:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

My slut was nearly killed by a chiropractor. She could tell it better to be sure, but this clown "adjusted" something in her neck and spine. Whatever he did to her began a chain reaction and basically caused the veins in her spine around her neck to unwind... there is a medical term for it, but I am too sleep deprived to remember what it was. I'll ask her and post it later.

Anyway, she was seen by a regular doctor because the pain was increasing substantially and when he examined her, she was emergency air lifted to a Philadelphia hospital for emergency surgery.

I have a herniated disk in my lower back and one in my neck... a few friends told me to go to a chiropractor. Being the dyed in the wool skeptic that I am, I talked with my neurosurgeon about it. He basically told me that my disks were not bad enough to be operated on, but if I wanted to go see a chiropractor he would be more than happy to do the surgery afterward.

The final tale that kind of sealed the deal for me... not that it needed much help, was my father who suffers from peripheral neuropathy. He was told by a friend to go see a chiropractor, so my Dad went. The guy did an evaluation and told my Dad that he could cure his neuropathy with regular sessions which is bullshit.

I have no trust or faith in these medical snake oil salesmen that can claim to do wonders for you and cure all sorts of ailments because your spine is out of alignment. I'll save my money, thanks.

One's bad...we're all bad? I'm in the profession and I've never heard of a D.C. adjusting a spine forcefully enough to cause the circulatory system I the neck to unwind. I know of cases where the adjustment caused an already-present tear to become worse. I also know of cases where the same has happened with P.T.s (medically approved of), Osteopaths (medical doctors who use adjustment), patients (neither medically nor choropractically approved of).

As for the disc problem you have...I can't address it. Never seen you. But I can tell you that the neurosurgeon AND orthopedic surgeon I work with have both told patients of mine that the reason they responded well to their surgeries...and didn't wind up on the over 50% failed back-surgery syndrome list...was the work I'd done through the years.

Of course, with 31 years behind me of knowing when to bring the specialists in, they could have just been blowing smoke up their ass.

For every chiropractic horror story, I can bring you a medical one, as I noted earlier. That doesn't make them all quacks or negligent. Some horror stories, medical and chiropractic, ARE due to fraudulent procedures or poor technique or negligence...but many are due to presentations that do not match up to the underlying condition. In the latter case, M.D.s, D.C.s, D.O.s, P.T.s may get reprimanded and suspended or disciplined but cleared.



igor2003 -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 12:15:01 PM)

--FR—

I’ve been to chiropractors that have done me worlds of good, and I’ve been to some that did more damage than good. My mother went to one about 3 years ago that actually cracked three of her ribs. There are things that they can do, and do very well, but sometimes they try to “fix” things that they shouldn’t be messing with. I went to one for about 4 months that tried to “fix” my lower back, and if anything it felt worse, so I stopped going. The problem, as it turned out, was that I had several vertebrate out of alignment with the disks severely degenerated, and now I’m going into surgery one week from today to have my L4, L5, and S1 vertebrate fused. So, in my opinion he shouldn’t have been messing with it to begin with, and he should have known that he shouldn’t be attempting to do anything with it. Just my opinion.



littleladybug -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 12:54:01 PM)

In my profession, I have met many chiropractors. With all due respect to the good chiros out there, and I know there are many... my own impression is that you would have to go A LOT to get me to go to one.

It's the whole issue of "palliative" vs. "curative" care to me. One of the favorite jury questions in personal injury cases in my neck of the woods is "so, is this the lifetime chiro plan?". Yup, adjustments can feel good, much like a massage can. There's an issue, at least in my area, of chiropractors insisting that their treatment is "necessary" for years and years. If it's not curing you after 6 weeks, why do you think it will after 6 months or 6 years? Because he or she says so??

Then, there's also *some* chiros being in bed with plaintiff's attorneys. Again, not saying all...not at all. But, that is a reality.

Thankfully, this has not been an issue in my life. But, from my own experience, I would say that, if recommended, I might consider it...if that person was real enough to say "hey listen, let's try this for 6 or 8 weeks, and if it doesn't work, you should move onto something else".






CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 1:41:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

In my profession, I have met many chiropractors. With all due respect to the good chiros out there, and I know there are many... my own impression is that you would have to go A LOT to get me to go to one.

It's the whole issue of "palliative" vs. "curative" care to me. One of the favorite jury questions in personal injury cases in my neck of the woods is "so, is this the lifetime chiro plan?". Yup, adjustments can feel good, much like a massage can. There's an issue, at least in my area, of chiropractors insisting that their treatment is "necessary" for years and years. If it's not curing you after 6 weeks, why do you think it will after 6 months or 6 years? Because he or she says so??

Then, there's also *some* chiros being in bed with plaintiff's attorneys. Again, not saying all...not at all. But, that is a reality.

Thankfully, this has not been an issue in my life. But, from my own experience, I would say that, if recommended, I might consider it...if that person was real enough to say "hey listen, let's try this for 6 or 8 weeks, and if it doesn't work, you should move onto something else

Hell, I wouldn't give you that long. Depending on what you presented with, you'd be given 1 day, 2 days, from 1 week to 4 weeks to either show improvement or be sent out for further evaluation. That is why I maintain a good relationship with several M.D.s, the hospital, one orthopedic specialist in this town and at least one orthopedic specialist and neurologist (we don't have one here) out of town...and why I still have those relationships.

They know what my practice is based on.

Like I said...I'll never be wealthy. But I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and not be ashamed of me or what I do as a doctor.



DesFIP -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 2:21:51 PM)

Legitimate but insufficiently testing to obtain the license. Mine does a lot of sports medicine.
The equestrians usually have fucked up ankles from years of turning them in to put pressure on the horse.
He adjusts them for immediate relief and then hands out sheets of exercises.

You could get the same by going to physical therapy for six months but that's pricey as hell. One of two sessions followed by doing the exercises gives you the immediate relief instead of waiting till you've done all that pt.

I used to go to the podiatrist every six months and all he could do was give me a shot of cortisone. I was taking my son to the chiropractor for a basketball injury and mentioned this. I saw him once and obtained almost three years of relief.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 2:34:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Legitimate but insufficiently testing to obtain the license. Mine does a lot of sports medicine.
The equestrians usually have fucked up ankles from years of turning them in to put pressure on the horse.
He adjusts them for immediate relief and then hands out sheets of exercises.

You could get the same by going to physical therapy for six months but that's pricey as hell. One of two sessions followed by doing the exercises gives you the immediate relief instead of waiting till you've done all that pt.

I used to go to the podiatrist every six months and all he could do was give me a shot of cortisone. I was taking my son to the chiropractor for a basketball injury and mentioned this. I saw him once and obtained almost three years of relief.
I don't know about insufficient testing...when I took my state boards, it took 2 days and I was tested by both D.C.s and M.D.s. My examiner for the X-Ray portion was the radiologist at Denver General.

Thank you for the positive words.[;)]



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 2:36:31 PM)

~FR (cuz it's still trendy)

I sure see a lot of blind faith walk-in shit. I'm more of a schedule a lunch with the M.D. and chiropractor, review medical history, pour over MRI's, hand them a medical plan and hash it out kind of dumb ass.

Jus sayin



eulero83 -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 2:44:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

I choosed not sure/other, because of the reasons shiftyw and MariaB pointed out. It has a fundation but being alternative means it's not regulated and because of that you ca find yourself in front of incompetent people, that when talking about the C1 vertebra is scary. I was helped a lot by a chiropract when my stiff neck some years ago, but I considered it quite scary experience, too.
Not regulated? We're under the regulation of a Chiropractic Board and the State Department of Regulatory Agencies. Same as any other doctor.



Sorry my mistake was due to a different situation in my country. That I discovered it's no more true even here since a couple years ago.



littleladybug -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 4:03:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


Like I said...I'll never be wealthy. But I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and not be ashamed of me or what I do as a doctor.



Ok, I'm really NOT trying to be a bitch here. Honestly, I'm not. But, the consistent reference to being a "doctor" just really is prompting me to call up some of my favorite DOs.

Hmmm...all of the privileges of being an MD, PLUS doing manipulations?? Is that then a "doctor plus"?

I can honestly understand where you are coming from...and really, I don't want to be a bitch at all...but wouldn't it seem less, erm, desperate...to call yourself a chiropractor and be done with it?

Believe it or not, I had a far WORSE view of chiropractors before i entered the field of insurance defense. It was only then that I met some really good chiros. (Actually, chiros that make a butt load of money from telling car accident "victims" that they don't need chiropractic treatment for the rest of their lives. If you haven't done so already, you may want to look into this.)





CreativeDominant -> RE: Chiropractic Medicine: Real, Quackery, or Scam? (9/16/2014 5:17:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


Like I said...I'll never be wealthy. But I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and not be ashamed of me or what I do as a doctor.



Ok, I'm really NOT trying to be a bitch here. Honestly, I'm not. But, the consistent reference to being a "doctor" just really is prompting me to call up some of my favorite DOs.

Hmmm...all of the privileges of being an MD, PLUS doing manipulations?? Is that then a "doctor plus"?

I can honestly understand where you are coming from...and really, I don't want to be a bitch at all...but wouldn't it seem less, erm, desperate...to call yourself a chiropractor and be done with it?

Believe it or not, I had a far WORSE view of chiropractors before i entered the field of insurance defense. It was only then that I met some really good chiros. (Actually, chiros that make a butt load of money from telling car accident "victims" that they don't need chiropractic treatment for the rest of their lives. If you haven't done so already, you may want to look into this.)

Why would it seem less desperate? I AM a doctor. I'm not a physician's' assistant (often called Dr...they're not), not a nurse, not a physical therapist. I'm a chiropractor or a Chiropractic physician or a Doctor of Chiropractic. That's what I prefer to be addressed as: Doctor ____________. Not to be an ass here but if this was topic was about, let's say, medical doctors and whether or not they really do help or are just cut-happy pill-pushers...and there was some medical doctor explaining his beliefs and practice to others and how there's good medical doctors as well as bad ones, would he appear desperate for using the title he earned? Or should he just call himself a sawbones or a medico or a should he present a professional demeanor and call himself a doctor?

Now then...all the privileges of being an M.D. plus spinal and joint adjustment? Not hardly. I cannot prescribe medicine, cannot perform surgery, cannot admit patients to the hospital. I cannot treat any condition I choose, despite what some claim. I'm responsible for knowing those conditions I have no business being the primary provider in. Do you know the ONLY thing that stands in the way...at least nowadays...of a medical doctor treating any condition
he chooses? Insurance rates and...within the last 50 years...specialization of treatment. Hell, my ex- wive's M.D. delivered my kids. Find a G.P. that does now. None of this is whining, by the way. It is the way I prefer to practice.

As for telling victims that they don't need care for the rest of their lives, I'm already used as an independent reviewer by the insurance companies. Sometimes, they like what I say...Sometimes, they don't. Then I don't get used for awhile. But that's o.k., my responsibility is to the person who's hurt...or not.





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