quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Unfortunately, that would be seriously hindering the player's ability to pay for a defense. I'd have to look but I'd be willing to bet that a constitutional argument could be made against this type of thing.

quote:

Frankly, I'm a huge NFL fan but, I think they have enjoyed protection from anti-trust laws for far too long. Competition is good; in ALL businesses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I don't see potential damage as a mitigating factor, honestly.

quote:

More to the point, If she is an abuser, she's certainly well aware with whom she is messing.

To answer your question about how I could "tell" from the video. Obviously, I can't. That's why I asked as a question and why I am waiting to see what evidence does come out.

quote:

My 4' 11 ¾" ex-wife hit me on a regular basis because she knew she was "safe". After her arrest (she pushed into me in front of the cops), the judge basically mocked me in court. Saying he wasn't about to believe she did me any damage (although I still had a black eye). But, again, damage isn't the issue. It's either wrong for either person to hit the other or the instigator has to live with the result (in my book).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Unfortunately, that would be seriously hindering the player's ability to pay for a defense. I'd have to look but I'd be willing to bet that a constitutional argument could be made against this type of thing.

Possibly. However they are contractual employees with "morality" clauses in their contracts. If they are unable to pay for a defense the solution is that they either do not get in trouble or they get themselves a public defender just the rest of us poor schlubs have to get. Hard to make a constitutional argument when a lawyer can be provided. Perhaps the NFL players association could start a fund for legal defenses in case their players need one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I am sorry, I didn't read it as a question, my misunderstanding. I am not certain what more might come out about this episode. Definitely would put a different spin on things if he was the battered spouse... but you know and I know no one would fucking believe it for a second.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

What Ray did was wrong but, what if he's been the battered spouse? If it's wrong to hit your partner, gender shouldn't matter (which is another interesting discussion that gay marriage will bring to the fore).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Unfortunately, that would be seriously hindering the player's ability to pay for a defense. I'd have to look but I'd be willing to bet that a constitutional argument could be made against this type of thing.

Possibly. However they are contractual employees with "morality" clauses in their contracts. If they are unable to pay for a defense the solution is that they either do not get in trouble or they get themselves a public defender just the rest of us poor schlubs have to get. Hard to make a constitutional argument when a lawyer can be provided. Perhaps the NFL players association could start a fund for legal defenses in case their players need one.

Contracts be damned. I think if we start with the fourteenth amendment, there's some meat here.

The fourteenth amendment says that all citizens are to be treated equally. If we're agreed on that, read on.

If we use you as an example; what you're saying would mean that if you're driving home one night, sober as a judge, and a cop pulls you over on suspicion of DUI, your boss should be able to suspend you without pay until the case is adjudicated.

Even if you manage to "fix" it, the first time, you could wait up to a month for a court date. if the prosecution decides to drag things out, you could be waiting even longer than that (I know people who have waited six months for a court date).

How do you think you'd fair in that instance? No work, and while you're suspended, your contract might still preclude you from looking for another job. In the mean time, you're not even guilty of the charge (we don't know if Ray is).

Would your landlord wait for the rent? How hungry do you think you'd get? Did you budget for defending yourself against a charge that you never dreamed you'd be facing?

When you also factor in that the court has already kind of spoken in the matter (pre-trial intervention or whatever it's called), the law has already said that they think he merits a second chance based upon the fact that he seems to have been a decent guy, up until this point (Full disclosure: I knew Ray when he played at Rutgers and he was a solid, up-standing, guy).

Now, that I've done all of that, we can go to the fifth amendment where no citizen can be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. As I just mentioned, the court has spoken ... sort of. If Ray keeps his nose clean for an amount of time, this incident will be expunged from his record as if it never happened (meaning: legally, it didn't).

Yeah, I know the NFL has a morals clause but, I'll bet your employment agreement does, too. So, there's that pesky fourteenth amendment, again. Why should you be treated any different/better than Ray?

In answer to your little side note: I have not taken anything you've typed to be argumentative, snarky, insincere, or insulting.







Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If we use you as an example; what you're saying would mean that if you're driving home one night, sober as a judge, and a cop pulls you over on suspicion of DUI, your boss should be able to suspend you without pay until the case is adjudicated.

quote:

Even if you manage to "fix" it, the first time, you could wait up to a month for a court date. if the prosecution decides to drag things out, you could be waiting even longer than that (I know people who have waited six months for a court date).

How do you think you'd fair in that instance? No work, and while you're suspended, your contract might still preclude you from looking for another job. In the mean time, you're not even guilty of the charge (we don't know if Ray is).

Would your landlord wait for the rent? How hungry do you think you'd get? Did you budget for defending yourself against a charge that you never dreamed you'd be facing?

quote:

When you also factor in that the court has already kind of spoken in the matter (pre-trial intervention or whatever it's called), the law has already said that they think he merits a second chance based upon the fact that he seems to have been a decent guy, up until this point (Full disclosure: I knew Ray when he played at Rutgers and he was a solid, up-standing, guy).

quote:

Now, that I've done all of that, we can go to the fifth amendment where no citizen can be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. As I just mentioned, the court has spoken ... sort of. If Ray keeps his nose clean for an amount of time, this incident will be expunged from his record as if it never happened (meaning: legally, it didn't).

quote:

Yeah, I know the NFL has a morals clause but, I'll bet your employment agreement does, too. So, there's that pesky fourteenth amendment, again. Why should you be treated any different/better than Ray?

quote:

In answer to your little side note: I have not taken anything you've typed to be argumentative, snarky, insincere, or insulting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

When the evidence is not able to be challenged or the charges are so heinous and apparently true (e.g., Jerry Sandusky), then obviously you have to suspend. But you can't just go around suspending anyone accused because there are many reasons to unjustly accuse someone loaded with money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

So, to open an even bigger can of worms (but still reasonably on topic): Do we want equality in this country or do we wish to subjugate those that some people want to label as abusers (based upon their gender, race, religion ... whatever)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I did say that if the police charge you with a crime. If I were sober and properly tested either on the spot or with a blood test, my being pulled over on a suspicion of a DUI is not a crime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

When the evidence is not able to be challenged or the charges are so heinous and apparently true (e.g., Jerry Sandusky), then obviously you have to suspend. But you can't just go around suspending anyone accused because there are many reasons to unjustly accuse someone loaded with money.

I'll stipulate to this but, let me re-phrase the question: If you, I, or Gauge can avail ourselves of PTI (Pre-Trial Intervention), why can't Ray?

If that PTI says that after a completion of a probationary period, paying a fine, counseling, etc., the incident is forgotten, doesn't any other citizen deserve the same consideration.

While I realize that the amendments I referenced apply to how the government treats citizens, I think a case could be made for a company selectively applying their morals clause, willy-nilly.

Also, let's not let the fact pass us by that Ray is (by NFL running back standards) getting a little long in the tooth. How much did that factor into the NFL's action and non-actions in the case of the two QBs you mentioned?

At the end of the day, I think this is another case of the court of public opinion fucking up a person's life because they have nothing better to do with their time.

Maybe, Ray's wife has been smacking him around for quite some time. Maybe this was the last straw and he just lost his head? I think that's probably the reason for the PTI.

I think most people are finally starting to refer to "Battered Spouse Syndrome" but, for a long time, it was "Battered Wife Syndrome" (suggesting that only men could be guilty).

If we take just this incident for which there is a video record, it was Ray's wife who threw the first (two) punch(es) and one slap. I am not arguing self-defense. I am arguing poor judgment and (possibly) prolonged spousal abuse.

Women have killed men and gotten slaps on the wrist but people want to lynch this young man.








Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Remind me to tell you about my little run-in with an arrogant asshole of a New Brunswick cop, some time. The long and short: I was pulled over, given a FST (which I passed), taken in, my car impounded, given three (the law only required me to acquiesce to two) breathalyzers, passing all three (blowing a ZERO), still being printed, photographed and charged and subjected to a prosecutor trying to save the cops ass. By the way; I hadn't had a drink in about two weeks, at the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Remind me to tell you about my little run-in with an arrogant asshole of a New Brunswick cop, some time. The long and short: I was pulled over, given a FST (which I passed), taken in, my car impounded, given three (the law only required me to acquiesce to two) breathalyzers, passing all three (blowing a ZERO), still being printed, photographed and charged and subjected to a prosecutor trying to save the cops ass. By the way; I hadn't had a drink in about two weeks, at the time.

You just told me. [:)]


This would be neat trick for me, I just had 14 years sober in August. In your situation I would have requested a blood test... as would I if I get pulled over now for the same reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ForTotalSlave

What are the chances they fuck up the blood test results? Unless they preserve a sample of the blood and give it to my attorney, I would remain skeptical. Which is why many attorneys say to refuse and damn the consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: ForTotalSlave

What are the chances they fuck up the blood test results? Unless they preserve a sample of the blood and give it to my attorney, I would remain skeptical. Which is why many attorneys say to refuse and damn the consequences.

The chances are nil. Independent labs and hospitals would do the testing anyway. Since I have been through drug testing before I can tell you that the first thing they will explain is that until the sample, be it urine or blood, is properly sealed and identified 3 different ways, that sample is not to leave your sight... so that confusing the test is near impossible.

A lawyer that tells you to refuse a sobriety test is a fool... that is an automatic loss of license in many, if not all states.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If we use you as an example; what you're saying would mean that if you're driving home one night, sober as a judge, and a cop pulls you over on suspicion of DUI, your boss should be able to suspend you without pay until the case is adjudicated.

I did say that if the police charge you with a crime. If I were sober and properly tested either on the spot or with a blood test, my being pulled over on a suspicion of a DUI is not a crime.

quote:

Even if you manage to "fix" it, the first time, you could wait up to a month for a court date. if the prosecution decides to drag things out, you could be waiting even longer than that (I know people who have waited six months for a court date).

How do you think you'd fair in that instance? No work, and while you're suspended, your contract might still preclude you from looking for another job. In the mean time, you're not even guilty of the charge (we don't know if Ray is).

Would your landlord wait for the rent? How hungry do you think you'd get? Did you budget for defending yourself against a charge that you never dreamed you'd be facing?

I never said my proposal was flawless, it was thought about and written in about 5 minutes. [:)] You make good points, and maybe that is why the players association should start a fund.

quote:

When you also factor in that the court has already kind of spoken in the matter (pre-trial intervention or whatever it's called), the law has already said that they think he merits a second chance based upon the fact that he seems to have been a decent guy, up until this point (Full disclosure: I knew Ray when he played at Rutgers and he was a solid, up-standing, guy).

The fact that the court has spoken is not lost on me. My family is heavily rooted in the legal profession. The problem enters in with how the league handled everything and how the Ravens front office handled it. I am not going to doubt you about Ray Rice and his character, all I have to go on is that video and his playing that I have seen on TV. This all might have happened in a drunken fit... I don't know, neither does anyone else really, but quite frankly, if Ray had stood up and came forward and addressed this thing outright, and had immediately shown some sort of contrition for his actions, I might feel a bit differently than I do now. So might the rest of the people who have been following this thing. If it was a total clusterfuck that got out of hand and was a mistake, OK, then both he and his wife should get directly involved as a face for raising awareness about domestic violence, and start getting pro-active about this thing, instead of wishing it would all just up and go away. This is the only part where I think he failed after the initial incident... if you fucked up, get in front of it, be humble and do something to sway public opinion. As has been pointed out, the public can be vicious bastards, but Ray has done zero to stop the bleeding... and the NFL suffers from head-up-the-ass disease, which hasn't helped matters.

My only other addition to this was why, when this happened, did Harbaugh want to cut Ray? If Harbaugh is as close to Ray as he claims to be, then why was his reaction to want to cut him from the team. Moreover, why did the Ravens front office prevent their head coach from doing so? If anyone would want to back their player, it would be the coach... and Harbaugh is no idiot, so it only leaves me asking why.

quote:

Now, that I've done all of that, we can go to the fifth amendment where no citizen can be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. As I just mentioned, the court has spoken ... sort of. If Ray keeps his nose clean for an amount of time, this incident will be expunged from his record as if it never happened (meaning: legally, it didn't).

No argument.

quote:

Yeah, I know the NFL has a morals clause but, I'll bet your employment agreement does, too. So, there's that pesky fourteenth amendment, again. Why should you be treated any different/better than Ray?

Because you know that the shitty reality is that people with money get treated differently more often than not. If you want any proof, just look up the court case that coined the word affluenza. A kid gets away with killing 3 people while drunk driving and his defense was that he had affluenza, which was the fact that he did not know right from wrong because he was rich. If I had been the drunk driver and killed 3 people, I would never see the light of day again. You know it, and I know it... and that fucking blows.

quote:

In answer to your little side note: I have not taken anything you've typed to be argumentative, snarky, insincere, or insulting.

I am glad to hear that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

They should have more frequent random anti-doping tests and longer suspensions (1st time one year, 2nd time life) and be sure they'd solve the off field violence problems.

They drug test quite frequently in the NFL. Longer suspensions might work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tensions

I can solve the problems with the NFL... disband it. It's a barbarian sport for Roman citizens, but at least the Romans had the decency to kill off most contestants before they got old and suffered in hospitals from their injuries (both mental and physical).

But certainly, let's criticize the behavior of the contestants. It couldn't possibly be rooted in the society from which it arose or the people who cheer gladly at physical abuse when it happens in a stadium or on a field...

Point the gun at yourselves football fans. The NFL isn't the problem; you are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Actually, it would be awesome if the Washington Redskins changed their mascot to a potato.

Since I am an Eagles fan, that would suit me just fine. Mashing the Spuds on a Sunday afternoon would be a pleasure.

quote:

quote:

As far as the domestic violence issue goes, it should stay out of it, or make a broad rule regarding lawbreakers. That is, each level of crime has it's own repercussion, but that has nothing to do with the specific crime. All misdemeanors will result in the same penalty, for instance. Each team has the right to penalize the player, too, and that can be more specific to the crime (afterall, the player is employed by the team, not the league).

Kind of difficult for the NFL to stay out of the legal troubles of the players. With the exposure of Arron Hernandez being a murderer and heavily involved in street gangs, and the many other well known players and serious legal troubles associated with them, they have to protect the game before the fans abandon ship.
I say if a player gets charged with a crime by the police, they should be suspended without pay by the team and league until their court problem is resolved. Their pay can be held by the league pending outcome of the hearing or investigation into the crime. This will properly cover misdemeanors and anything more severe. Misdemeanors can be resolved very quickly in most cases, and for anything more severe, they will have to deal with the problem before being allowed to return to an active roster. The incentive being to keep your fucking nose clean, literally and figuratively.

quote:

quote:

The league should have more say in issues of performance enhancing drugs, as they do have a reason to maintain the legitimacy of the game itself.

The NFL has a very clear and written drug policy which includes street drugs and various other performance enhancing drugs and banned substances. The league is currently reviewing their drug policy, and I am not certain what the proposed revisions might be. One player who is facing a suspension because of a fertility drug that he was taking as prescribed by his doctor so he an his wife could try to have a child might have his suspension overturned as a result of the changes. His defense was that he did not know it was a banned substance... the NFL clearly puts the responsibility on the player to investigate what he puts into his own body, so his defense was bullshit... but it may be a moot point if the changes happen.
Whatever the case, the NFL has a shitty image after losing the lawsuit over the concussions, Arron Hernandez being arrested for executing three people gangland style, and now the scandal de jour of Ray Rice and a few others who are big names in the league. The bleeding has to stop somewhere, and it may take a change in commissioner in order to kick the players in the balls and get them to straighten up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

It struck me that the NFL could solve both its current PR problems in one easy move...

The should rename the Washington Redskins, the Washington Wifebeaters.

They are two different problems but they are both relatively simple to solve.

First, the name of Washington's Team (and yes, I won't use it because I agree that it is a racial slur). If the team owner doesn't want to do the right thing then the League should do what it can (legally and contractually) to force the issue. Social Media should also keep the pressure on. If the Washington Team managment were smart, they'd gin up publicity by holding a naming contest.

As for the violence against women issue, this shouldn't even be a debate. The League should make it a mandatory, league wide, policy that any NFL player (or for that matter, any NFL employee) who is arrested for and/or is seen on video engaging in, violence against women (or anyone for that matter) will be immediately suspended indefinitely - with pay - until the matter is resolved legally. If they are found guilty (and pleading guilty to lesser charges would be considered the same as a guilty plea to the original charges) then they are terminated, with no further pay, and are given a lifetime ban from the League.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Kind of difficult for the NFL to stay out of the legal troubles of the players. With the exposure of Arron Hernandez being a murderer and heavily involved in street gangs, and the many other well known players and serious legal troubles associated with them, they have to protect the game before the fans abandon ship.