Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/28/2014 8:18:17 PM)

• From 2001 to 2007, 98 percent of income gains accrued to the top 10 percent of earners

• in the first three years of the current expansion, incomes actually fell for the bottom 90 percent of earners

• One percent of the population, in the first three years of the current expansion, took home 95 percent of the income gains.

The Benefits of Economic Expansions Are Increasingly Going to the Richest Americans





cloudboy -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/28/2014 8:20:31 PM)

The bottom 90% of American Workers have been shut out from all U.S. income gains 2001-12. See Chart:

[image]local://upfiles/210115/30C2980A6E334D11966F83D37E4C2D44.jpg[/image]




MrRodgers -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/28/2014 10:51:27 PM)

American capitalism shows it true colors. G R E E D !!




Musicmystery -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/29/2014 6:01:41 AM)

You need a reading tutor.

The issue is political policy, not capitalism per se (which does indeed have its problems, if not the panoply you regularly ascribe to it).

The 70s saw the rise of arbitrage attacking currency fixed to gold, and policies that led to stagflation. (It was actually a great time to be in debt!)

Then the trickle-down policy of the Reagan years, and the drive to cut taxes over and over again ever since. And those are the dramatic changes -- these policies benefit the top, and don't trickle down. This is not new information -- Reagan's financial people admitted it afterward.

But the article says the common government approach includes tax and spend -- the US doesn't do that, though....we've switched started with Reagan to borrow and spend.

Whatever the economic system, applying it with idiocy isn't going to help it work. And at the same time, deregulation since the Reagan years has made things worse.

And finally, voters have been enthusiastically voting for politicians espousing policies against their own interests.

The problem isn't capitalism per se -- it's stupidity.




cloudboy -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/29/2014 6:59:54 AM)


I would also say that the "recovery" since the GREAT RECESSION has been mostly about the stock market. Whatever complaints anyone might lodge against the Obama Administration, one can't complain about the stock market and how well it has rebounded.

We've tried to play the conditions to our advantage: we had decent cash on hand when the recession hit and our house never went underwater. From 08 to now we held our our stock holdings (not selling in a panic) and have purchased three houses (now have two rented out) in the depressed housing market.

The other thing I notice is how starved our government spending has been (except for military spending.) In my city and around the country, our infrastructure is just declining.




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/29/2014 5:35:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You need a reading tutor.

The issue is political policy, not capitalism per se (which does indeed have its problems, if not the panoply you regularly ascribe to it).

The 70s saw the rise of arbitrage attacking currency fixed to gold, and policies that led to stagflation. (It was actually a great time to be in debt!)

Then the trickle-down policy of the Reagan years, and the drive to cut taxes over and over again ever since. And those are the dramatic changes -- these policies benefit the top, and don't trickle down. This is not new information -- Reagan's financial people admitted it afterward.

But the article says the common government approach includes tax and spend -- the US doesn't do that, though....we've switched started with Reagan to borrow and spend.

Whatever the economic system, applying it with idiocy isn't going to help it work. And at the same time, deregulation since the Reagan years has made things worse.

And finally, voters have been enthusiastically voting for politicians espousing policies against their own interests.

The problem isn't capitalism per se -- it's stupidity.



What an excellent post! (minus the snarky "reading tutor" comment.




cloudboy -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/29/2014 5:40:58 PM)

Here's a funny example of what he's talking about:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4290739/mpage_3/key_racist/tm.htm#4291420

According to this poster, Obama is a "socialist." Three very intelligent posters tried to convince DS he was being ignorant, but he'd have none of it.




Edwynn -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/29/2014 11:31:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

American capitalism shows it true colors. G R E E D !!


As bad as greed for money for its own sake has displayed itself in the "Capitalists Gone Wild!" videos of 2007-2009, and as entertaining as those videos are, the "Communists Gone Wild!" videos of Stalin and Chairman Mao were pretty hot, too.

That is, for those who understand that the ultimate G R E E D is for power, above all else. That unavoidable dimension has and will continue to exist in any element it finds itself in.

In any case, you at least made the distinction of "American Capitalism," though you've so far not displayed knowledge of any other type.

There are thousands of small businesses who think of "American Capitalism" just as you do, and want to extract as much as possible from society. But there are many thousands more small businesses who just want to do a good job and provide a good product or service and like being at least nominally rewarded for the effort.

Even in "America," not every person owning or running a business (large or small) wakes up with the simple thought of how he/she can best screw everybody around him/her today, and tomorrow, and makes plans for a year down the road for same purpose.

So it's not "American Capitalism" as you claim after all, unless you're on the WSJ Kool-Aid side of it, anyway. That's exactly what they want everybody to believe.

There is nothing else that works for a society other than a market economy, but after that, there are only about a thousand different ways to do a "market economy."

Each country has to decide for itself whatever formula or blend for its own purpose, intention, and needs.

There is no blanket answer to the matter that would spread across all countries and especially all cultures, and it is (at least 100 years) retro in the extreme to consider otherwise.

In any case, let the Western oil companies or the Russian oil and gas companies make whatever money they want, as long as Std. Oil and (then British government owned) BP make all the money they wanted, but served as the vanguard of greed for power.

The early 20th century Germans and Japanese had their economic (and if paying attention, cultural) might right under their noses, but were so blinded and allured and greatly enamored of British -greed for power- that they completely overlooked their own otherwise intrinsic advantage, which attention given prevalence to would have served their society so much better.

But to get to the point, there is no such particular political or economic nostrum that will successfully apply across a country of 7 million as well as to a country of 1.3 billion, even if the putative successor ideology is so stupid as the throw out all the thousand-year made cultures and customs in the process.

As to the "capitalist" countries, some can just make a lot of money and be happy with that. Some few others make the same or more money but are still not happy (and they never will be), so they go to the public via the media and the think tanks and pay a lot of others to bitch about it for them. That is not "American capitalism, " it is just whiney-butt capitalism, and not representative of either capitalism or "America."











RottenJohnny -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 12:03:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
...But there are many thousands more small businesses who just want to do a good job and provide a good product or service and like being at least nominally rewarded for the effort.

Exactly right. Unfortunately, what I've seen over the years is that a lot of people who don't know what it's like to be a small business owner or simply self-employed often equate it with being wealthy when the complete opposite is usually the truth.




Zonie63 -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 5:47:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
...But there are many thousands more small businesses who just want to do a good job and provide a good product or service and like being at least nominally rewarded for the effort.

Exactly right. Unfortunately, what I've seen over the years is that a lot of people who don't know what it's like to be a small business owner or simply self-employed often equate it with being wealthy when the complete opposite is usually the truth.


I think most people can tell the difference between small business and big business. What I've noticed more often than not is that big business has numerous defenders and advocates among the hoi polloi (people who aren't wealthy but "wannabe" - just like all those small business owners), along with their ideological puppets in media and academia (otherwise known as "economists").

The main problem here in America, apart from simple greed, is that the Cold War has driven many Americans to be far more ideological than practical.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 11:29:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I think most people can tell the difference between small business and big business.

I think you'd be quite surprised by the number of people who don't understand small business.


And here is a perfect example...
quote:

What I've noticed more often than not is that big business has numerous defenders and advocates among the hoi polloi (people who aren't wealthy but "wannabe" - just like all those small business owners), along with their ideological puppets in media and academia (otherwise known as "economists").

If you think everyone who owns a small business is only looking to get rich then you don't understand the ideas of "independence" or just plain 'ol personal success. I'm not wealthy. I'm probably not ever going to be wealthy. Neither will most people who own small businesses. But hopefully, I won't ever have to work for anyone else...ever...and rely on their ability to run a business. Whatever I achieve, I can attribute it to my own hard work. The responsibilities and rewards are all my own. And that means more to me than any amount of money.




mnottertail -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 11:38:03 AM)

Oh, now now. I don't think anyone is allergic to money, we are not communists; after all.






RottenJohnny -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 11:58:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, now now. I don't think anyone is allergic to money, we are not communists; after all.


Well, if someone wants to pay me a million dollars to program their robot, I sure wouldn't say "no thanks". But the chances of that are pretty much non-existent considering companies don't offer to pay me anything. I have to quote a job. And if I quoted every job at a million dollars I probably wouldn't have much work.




NorthernGent -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 12:25:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

The early 20th century Germans and Japanese had their economic (and if paying attention, cultural) might right under their noses, but were so blinded and allured and greatly enamored of British -greed for power- that they completely overlooked their own otherwise intrinsic advantage, which attention given prevalence to would have served their society so much better.



Edwynn,

Greatly enamoured by 'British greed'?

Britain and Germany have fascinating histories, two of the most interesting countries on this planet, but the two countries are like chalk and cheese - more so then.

There is someone on this board who has a Nietzsche signature. He hated England, and believed, just like a lot of Germans did, that we were destroying European civilisation by promoting commerce and making it our priority.

The people who ran Germany didn't particularly like us at all. They were militarists and we were liberals, and just like Napoleon they mocked us, or at least thought they were mocking us, when they referred to us as 'a nation of shop keepers'.

Take yer pick mate: a load of lunatics running round the place looking to impose military rule or a nation of shop keepers.




Musicmystery -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 3:41:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, now now. I don't think anyone is allergic to money, we are not communists; after all.


Well, if someone wants to pay me a million dollars to program their robot, I sure wouldn't say "no thanks". But the chances of that are pretty much non-existent considering companies don't offer to pay me anything. I have to quote a job. And if I quoted every job at a million dollars I probably wouldn't have much work.

If you quoted every job at a million dollars, you wouldn't need much work. Just some.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 4:32:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, now now. I don't think anyone is allergic to money, we are not communists; after all.


Well, if someone wants to pay me a million dollars to program their robot, I sure wouldn't say "no thanks". But the chances of that are pretty much non-existent considering companies don't offer to pay me anything. I have to quote a job. And if I quoted every job at a million dollars I probably wouldn't have much work.

If you quoted every job at a million dollars, you wouldn't need much work. Just some.

Got a robot you want programmed?




tj444 -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 4:47:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

• From 2001 to 2007, 98 percent of income gains accrued to the top 10 percent of earners

• in the first three years of the current expansion, incomes actually fell for the bottom 90 percent of earners

• One percent of the population, in the first three years of the current expansion, took home 95 percent of the income gains.

The Benefits of Economic Expansions Are Increasingly Going to the Richest Americans

I don't think this is much of a revelation to most Americans, they already know it.. I do wonder tho, how the non-1%ers fare in relation to the 1% in other countries...




Musicmystery -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 5:14:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, now now. I don't think anyone is allergic to money, we are not communists; after all.


Well, if someone wants to pay me a million dollars to program their robot, I sure wouldn't say "no thanks". But the chances of that are pretty much non-existent considering companies don't offer to pay me anything. I have to quote a job. And if I quoted every job at a million dollars I probably wouldn't have much work.

If you quoted every job at a million dollars, you wouldn't need much work. Just some.

Got a robot you want programmed?

I'm all set, thanks. But I'll keep an ear out for you.




Zonie63 -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 5:42:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I think most people can tell the difference between small business and big business.

I think you'd be quite surprised by the number of people who don't understand small business.


And here is a perfect example...
quote:

What I've noticed more often than not is that big business has numerous defenders and advocates among the hoi polloi (people who aren't wealthy but "wannabe" - just like all those small business owners), along with their ideological puppets in media and academia (otherwise known as "economists").

If you think everyone who owns a small business is only looking to get rich then you don't understand the ideas of "independence" or just plain 'ol personal success. I'm not wealthy. I'm probably not ever going to be wealthy. Neither will most people who own small businesses. But hopefully, I won't ever have to work for anyone else...ever...and rely on their ability to run a business. Whatever I achieve, I can attribute it to my own hard work. The responsibilities and rewards are all my own. And that means more to me than any amount of money.


Why would small business owners be so quick to defend capitalism and big business, then?




Musicmystery -> RE: Economic Expansion --- You Gotta see THE CHART for 2001-12 (9/30/2014 5:43:40 PM)

I think it's merely your perception/belief that they do.

You've certainly shared no evidence for it.




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