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RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 9:55:02 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Seeing as you can't work the quote system - I fixed it for you...
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Shooting is just not necessary at all, in any situation. Period.


Tell that to the millions of victims of violent crime in this country.

So... scrap guns in public!! Gun problem solved!!

But oh no... that would take away your rights... can't have that can we?!

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305
quote:


he calls you 'a nutter' - his words, not mine.


And, likewise, I find people who are unwilling to defend themselves (thus perpetuating the victim mentality in this country) to be 'nutters'...

We do defend ourselves and often very efficiently.
Just not with guns... Even by people who do own guns in this country.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to darkwanderer3305)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 10:31:19 AM   
darkwanderer3305


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks for the assist. No, I'm not particularly acquainted with the quote system.

As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care. The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun. And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means.

I understand the concept that there are other methods, and that other countries use such methods to varying degrees of success..

However, in this country, I still have the choice and I choose 'shoot to kill' to protect myself and my family.

And, just because you want to scrap guns in public, doesn't mean that all of the armed criminals here are going to go along with that plan.

The fact is - if it comes down to lawful citizens dying, or, armed thugs dying - I think the thugs should go first in order to thin out the gene pool so maybe one day we won't need any weapons...

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 10:35:35 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I stated, I didn't boast.

I sensed a note of pride in your response rather than just a statement.
That makes it a boast in my book.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If anything it was a complaint that I had to take such action. But there is no way you will accept that because nothing is important enough to change your mind.

Nothing in this world is important enough to even contemplate taking another person's life unless you are a deranged lunatic.
Unfortunately, it is so easily achieved when using a gun as opposed to anything else.
And your stance is - shoot to kill, not disarm or injure.... kill.
And don't say it isn't because you said that in this thread a few posts ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I am glad you escaped harm but the various people who pointed this out are right, you would be arrested for that here as surely as if you walked down the street with a shotgun on your shoulder.

Yep. And I agree with that sentiment entirely... Surprisingly for you.
But, I don't carry it around with me all the time.
Unlike you, who seem to want/like to carry your firearm with you in public.



And unlike you I don't believe in open carry.
You either carry always or not at all, unless you can tell me how to know when and where I will need it, of course if I know that (unless it is that they are coming after me of course) I simple won't go there.
You never did tell me how your +5 holy avenger 2x4 would be of any use against 6 guys with baseball bats, an incident that occurred to someone else just doing their job near my house. I suspect it is because your only answers are surrender and count on their good will or hope you can outrun them.

Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/5/2014 10:41:40 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:14:46 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305

perhaps, but, a prison sentence for me, while my family is safe - AND - that particular criminal is dead and unable to harm or threaten anyone else is a scenario I can live with... Fortunately, in America, you do not get a prison sentence for a justifiable act of self/family defense...

I know. Maybe they should start handing out sentences for killing other people.

Just about most other places, killing someone, regardless of the situation, is considered a homicide.
You'd need a damned good reason to escape a prison sentence; and no, self defense isn't good enough anywhere else.

And if you did get a jail sentence (probably 10+ years), what happens if your family are put in the same situation again?? You wouldn't be there to 'defend' them with your gun, you'd be in jail.


ETA: If you used something else other than a gun, chances are that he would go to jail and you would be free to live with your family. That is why I consider firearms to be dangerous in the hands of the general populace.
Maybe not so much owning one (because we also own and use guns over here); just being allowed to have them in public is my main concern - too convenient to kill someone, even if by accident.

If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:35:56 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ooh. .. I haven't read this story...

When did you run off a drug dealer?

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:43:22 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Ooh. .. I haven't read this story...

When did you run off a drug dealer?

Most recently about 3 years ago.
He tried sneaking up on me while I was standing on my porch.
When I demanded an explanation he told me he was delivering grass to me.
Then he insisted I was the guy he was looking for.
He used each cycle of talk to work his way in closer to me.
When he had gotten within about four feet I placed my hand on my gun, and told him to get off my property and never come back.
He left at a high rate of speed with his hands in the air yelling that he didn't mean any harm.
Until I touched my firearm he ignore being told to leave and used the cover to move in on me.
Haven't had an incident since.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:48:39 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

I don't deny that... and yes, I did.
He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife.

Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger??
If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:49:20 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		I am pretty sure you're wrong about that.

DUHHHHH


_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:49:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305

As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care.


So you are currently living in iraq of afghanistan?



The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun.

You also have a right to take a shit


And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means.

What unmitigated nonsense. If that were true there would be no walls, fences, or barb wire in prisons. If just guards with their guns were the most efficient.

I understand the concept that there are other methods, and that other countries use such methods to varying degrees of success..

The number of prison escapes seems to indicate that the degrees of success are pretty high.

However, in this country, I still have the choice and I choose 'shoot to kill' to protect myself and my family.

Actually you do not...at least not in the country I live in. A few keystrokes to google land could acquaint you with how many go to prison for doing what you advocate.


The fact is - if it comes down to lawful citizens dying, or, armed thugs dying - I think the thugs should go first in order to thin out the gene pool so maybe one day we won't need any weapons...

Google could also acquaint you with a pdf load of speeches in parliment declaring george, john and tommy as thugs that needed to be removed from the gene pool.

(in reply to darkwanderer3305)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:51:18 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical.

Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'.

Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:51:58 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305

While I agree that it would be most satisfying to bust up some punk ass who is threatening my family with a 2x4, lead pipe, baseball bat, or (insert your favorite impact weapon here); a gun prevents the unlikely scenario that the threat would win that physical confrontation.


Not according to bamma if they are closer than about 20'/


The gun is the final word in such a confrontation. It ensures my family's safety, my safety, and the security of my home.

Only if you win...sometimes the "bad guys" shoot back

(in reply to darkwanderer3305)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:52:14 AM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305

As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care.


So you are currently living in iraq of afghanistan?



The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun.

You also have a right to take a shit


And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means.

What unmitigated nonsense. If that were true there would be no walls, fences, or barb wire in prisons. If just guards with their guns were the most efficient.




Are you suggesting that, rather than buying a gun, we each make our houses into fortresses, with walls, fences and barbed wire? More so, when we go outside our house, should we walk about in barbed wire cages on wheels, so as to ensure our safety?


_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:54:09 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: BamaD


I agree with this in principal.
However the moment I reached for my gun the only target I had were backs.
The law here frowns on shooting people in the back, not the cops, but the law.
And I don't have a nearby woods to hide the bodies, although a dispatcher did offer to loan me their backco, in jest, I think.


Since coppers in your area have a historical record of using a back-hoe to "secure" evidence why would you think it was in jest?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:56:08 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
Are you suggesting that, rather than buying a gun, we each make our houses into fortresses, with walls, fences and barbed wire? More so, when we go outside our house, should we walk about in barbed wire cages on wheels, so as to ensure our safety?

If everyone followed the example of not buying a gun... there wouldn't be any on the streets and such measures would not be necessary.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to subrosaDom)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 11:56:22 AM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical.

Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'.

Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US.


Excessive force to prevent you or your family from being killed, raped or tortured? Really? So in the middle of that, one should calmly step back, consider all the options and carefully shoot the animal in the knee. Right. This is especially effective when the animal is on PCP and insensate to pain.

Now, you're right, in the UK, what you describe can happen. And that is an indictment of human rights, rights of the innocent, in and of itself.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 12:00:22 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical.

Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'.

Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US.


I would bet, that if you were to exclude military service, the total number of people killed by us gun advocates on here is likely zero. The total number of people shot is also likely very low, perhaps zero. Why? Because we defend ourselves. We don't go out looking for trouble. Personally, the number of people that I've killed or injured through ANY means is zero. And I hope it stays that way. But I'm not Pollyanna. However, if you are, then you should indeed post a "gun-free, weapon-free" sign on your house and advertise it in the newspapers.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 12:08:02 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

I don't deny that... and yes, I did.
He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife.

Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger??
If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary.


You tell me what he was up to.
Just passing the time of day?
If so why did he try to sneak up on me?
Not a sign of good will is it?
I had already, as you proclaimed that you knew I wouldn't do, told him to get off my property.
He was having none of that.


< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/5/2014 12:09:26 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 12:15:06 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
Excessive force to prevent you or your family from being killed, raped or tortured? Really? So in the middle of that, one should calmly step back, consider all the options and carefully shoot the animal in the knee. Right. This is especially effective when the animal is on PCP and insensate to pain.

Now, you're right, in the UK, what you describe can happen. And that is an indictment of human rights, rights of the innocent, in and of itself.

Any force that is deemed 'excessive' by the police (or a court of law), in that the amount of harm (or death) inflicted upon an assailant is disproportional to the perceived or actual threat, then yes, you would receive a jail sentence.
And yes, you should consider your options prior to delivering any harm. And no, that doesn't necessarily mean to step back either. The point being, you are responsible for your actions regardless of the circumstances and most laws (outside of the US) would make sure you are fully accountable for whatever action you take.

Unfortunately, many people in the US are using a very lax interpretation of the term "imminent" to make a defense and get away with what I consider to be murder, or manslaughter at the very least.

To use Bama's example of his drug dealer episode, 4ft away is still way too far to be thinking of using a gun. Unless that person was armed and pointing at you or otherwise charging at you with a weapon of some description, should anything have happened, Bama would have been jailed. If he had done that over here, the assailant could (and probably would) have sued him for pulling a gun and using threatening behaviour which would almost certainly carry a fine and a small amount of time at Her Majesty's pleasure as well as compensation payments to the other person.

Close proximity is not an excuse for irresponsible behaviour at all.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to subrosaDom)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 12:15:35 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

I don't deny that... and yes, I did.
He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife.

Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger??
If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary.


But waving around a 2x4 as you also suggested wouldn't have been.
Why haven't you told me how your +5 holy avenger 2x4 is going to protect you from 6 guys with baseball bats, and don't give me any crap about making up situations because it happened very near my house.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any oth... - 10/5/2014 12:17:24 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

I don't deny that... and yes, I did.
He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife.

Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger??
If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary.


You tell me what he was up to.
Just passing the time of day?
If so why did he try to sneak up on me?
Not a sign of good will is it?
I had already, as you proclaimed that you knew I wouldn't do, told him to get off my property.
He was having none of that.


But... you didn't have to use a gun to do it. That was my point.
It seemed he wasn't threatening you... he just got a little closer.
That in itself is not an excuse to threaten use of a gun. That's just a paranoid manic response.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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